Politicians of all stripes conveniently underestimate the public support for green and environmental policies.
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@afewbugs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire
The framing of green policies is important. Too often people think they are going to be forced to wear a hair shirt, rather than actually see their lives improve.
It’s also possible to go too far and make things sound utopian and the cynical Brits just don’t buy it, even when there are overseas examples of pedestrianised city centres with amazing public transport, cycle paths…and clean air.
@afewbugs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire
We often say it’s easy to do green projects on a small scale, but it’s hard to scale them up and we use that as an excuse in our densely populated country.
But Valencia, Grenoble, Stockholm, and Ljubljana are all European cities with a population of over 100,000 that have managed to reconcile economic growth, quality of life and environmental protection.
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@afewbugs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire
We often say it’s easy to do green projects on a small scale, but it’s hard to scale them up and we use that as an excuse in our densely populated country.
But Valencia, Grenoble, Stockholm, and Ljubljana are all European cities with a population of over 100,000 that have managed to reconcile economic growth, quality of life and environmental protection.
@JugglingWithEggs @afewbugs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire
It used to be said that you couldn't make a major city more people friendly and less car friendly... Until Paris did just that...Then again, large Japanese cities have always been low car, because there simple wasn't space for cars...
Provide effective alternatives and people will use them.
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@JugglingWithEggs @afewbugs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire
It used to be said that you couldn't make a major city more people friendly and less car friendly... Until Paris did just that...Then again, large Japanese cities have always been low car, because there simple wasn't space for cars...
Provide effective alternatives and people will use them.
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @afewbugs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
if the article and you all here are right, and almost everyone want to end #carnism and #motornormativity, then why does it continue?
the article in #theguardian place the responsibility on a "minority rightwing voices" that are somehow forcing the ecoconcious majority to eat #pigs and drive #cars despite not really wanting to.
did they swap your #tofu with pig sausages in your shopping basket or your fridge? did they hypnotize you to buy a #tesla against your will instead of an #ebike?
in my view, a much more likely answer is a hypocritical mentality of "everyone else are the problem", which would also explain the underestimated support for green policies.
a climate spokesperson for the danish environmentalist party (#theresascavenious from #alternativet) was campaigning for a reduction in airplane travel, yet was regularly flying copenhagen - aalborg, and resolutely defending her right to this, despite there being excellent train connection on that journey.
most of my family support "#lessmeat", but oppose me fiercely when i suggest we eat one single #plantbased meal together.
often there is a direct connection of conscience laundering between supporting abstract policies while opposing actual tangible action right in front of us: we fill our plates with sausages made from pigs choked in a #gaschamber while me claim to support policies better #animalwelfare.
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@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @afewbugs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
if the article and you all here are right, and almost everyone want to end #carnism and #motornormativity, then why does it continue?
the article in #theguardian place the responsibility on a "minority rightwing voices" that are somehow forcing the ecoconcious majority to eat #pigs and drive #cars despite not really wanting to.
did they swap your #tofu with pig sausages in your shopping basket or your fridge? did they hypnotize you to buy a #tesla against your will instead of an #ebike?
in my view, a much more likely answer is a hypocritical mentality of "everyone else are the problem", which would also explain the underestimated support for green policies.
a climate spokesperson for the danish environmentalist party (#theresascavenious from #alternativet) was campaigning for a reduction in airplane travel, yet was regularly flying copenhagen - aalborg, and resolutely defending her right to this, despite there being excellent train connection on that journey.
most of my family support "#lessmeat", but oppose me fiercely when i suggest we eat one single #plantbased meal together.
often there is a direct connection of conscience laundering between supporting abstract policies while opposing actual tangible action right in front of us: we fill our plates with sausages made from pigs choked in a #gaschamber while me claim to support policies better #animalwelfare.
@pelle @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire personally I think the key is the study about people wanting to feel in control of their lives and choices. Fewer and fewer people do in society - they have no control of what they do at work, the state of rented accommodation, the benefit and immigration and credit systems that determine peoples' choices are incomprehensible and hostile. So people resist things that feel like further restrictions on their lives, even when they're in
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@pelle @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire personally I think the key is the study about people wanting to feel in control of their lives and choices. Fewer and fewer people do in society - they have no control of what they do at work, the state of rented accommodation, the benefit and immigration and credit systems that determine peoples' choices are incomprehensible and hostile. So people resist things that feel like further restrictions on their lives, even when they're in
@pelle @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire their own interests like vaccinations or traffic calming measures or eating less meat which is healthier. The ones who don't resist are probably people like me who have the privilege to have a measure of control over their lives and feel they've found these solutions through their own independent research and decision making, rather than having them imposed by others
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@pelle @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire their own interests like vaccinations or traffic calming measures or eating less meat which is healthier. The ones who don't resist are probably people like me who have the privilege to have a measure of control over their lives and feel they've found these solutions through their own independent research and decision making, rather than having them imposed by others
@pelle @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire but specifically in the case of reducing the consumption of animal there is a very active meat industry lobby that has successfully convinced a large proportion of the population that you can't live healthily without meat, although at least the majority of people probably can. That's certainly the pushback I get in my own family, intelligent and well meaning people convinced you can't get enough protein or iron or calcium on a vegan
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@pelle @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire their own interests like vaccinations or traffic calming measures or eating less meat which is healthier. The ones who don't resist are probably people like me who have the privilege to have a measure of control over their lives and feel they've found these solutions through their own independent research and decision making, rather than having them imposed by others
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@pelle @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire but specifically in the case of reducing the consumption of animal there is a very active meat industry lobby that has successfully convinced a large proportion of the population that you can't live healthily without meat, although at least the majority of people probably can. That's certainly the pushback I get in my own family, intelligent and well meaning people convinced you can't get enough protein or iron or calcium on a vegan
@afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
I haven’t eaten meat since 2019, but no one else in my family has joined me - like your family they all think a diet without meat would be lacking in nutrients. I equally haven’t managed to persuade any of them to buy an EV or retrofit their homes in any way. I think they see me as eccentric. I admit it’s hard seeing the world so differently to how your loved ones do.
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@afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
I haven’t eaten meat since 2019, but no one else in my family has joined me - like your family they all think a diet without meat would be lacking in nutrients. I equally haven’t managed to persuade any of them to buy an EV or retrofit their homes in any way. I think they see me as eccentric. I admit it’s hard seeing the world so differently to how your loved ones do.
@afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
But my family (partner, parents and brothers + partners, in-laws) would probably all describe themselves as left-wing and fairly progressive…but that just means they read the Guardian and work in schools/universities/emergency services.
Brits are not like our European neighbours when it comes to making changes to our lives on the basis of environmental beliefs.
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@afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
But my family (partner, parents and brothers + partners, in-laws) would probably all describe themselves as left-wing and fairly progressive…but that just means they read the Guardian and work in schools/universities/emergency services.
Brits are not like our European neighbours when it comes to making changes to our lives on the basis of environmental beliefs.
@JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I have it easier than you do because my wife is vegan too, but my wider family sound like yours - all work or worked in the public sector, lifelong Guardian readers and Labour voters (although who knows who anyone will vote for next time). But they're all committed carnivores because they don't believe you can be healthy without meat and my brother recently bought one of those giant kidkiller SUVs and regularly flies on holiday
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@JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I have it easier than you do because my wife is vegan too, but my wider family sound like yours - all work or worked in the public sector, lifelong Guardian readers and Labour voters (although who knows who anyone will vote for next time). But they're all committed carnivores because they don't believe you can be healthy without meat and my brother recently bought one of those giant kidkiller SUVs and regularly flies on holiday
@afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
Voting wise my lot are a mix of Labour and Lib Dems. They see Greens as too extreme and don’t trust Polanski, but won’t really explain why. I just cannot fathom some days their complacency around voting for the same stale politicians, thinking that it’s better to ‘play safe’ than actually achieve progress by daring to want better. Frogs in proverbial cooking pot.
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@afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
Voting wise my lot are a mix of Labour and Lib Dems. They see Greens as too extreme and don’t trust Polanski, but won’t really explain why. I just cannot fathom some days their complacency around voting for the same stale politicians, thinking that it’s better to ‘play safe’ than actually achieve progress by daring to want better. Frogs in proverbial cooking pot.
@JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire "Extreme" is the word my parents use for the Greens too
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@afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
I haven’t eaten meat since 2019, but no one else in my family has joined me - like your family they all think a diet without meat would be lacking in nutrients. I equally haven’t managed to persuade any of them to buy an EV or retrofit their homes in any way. I think they see me as eccentric. I admit it’s hard seeing the world so differently to how your loved ones do.
@JugglingWithEggs
> I haven’t eaten meat since 2019, but no one else in my family has joined meyes. it's countless stories like those that make me doubt that "89% hidden green majority" narrative.
where i live there's around 1% #vegans. i think that number reveals more about how many people will actually "give up" a "freedom" for major animal rights and environmental win (although, luckily we aren't giving up anything, because #plantbased foods taste soooo much better than #corpsebased).
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P pelle@veganism.social shared this topic
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@JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire "Extreme" is the word my parents use for the Greens too
@afewbugs @JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @mpjgregoire
A lot of this is likely paranoia that the Greens will make it impossible to own/drive private cars or will ban ICE cars too early - although this seems to be increasingly unlikely (but the Greens aren't admitting to whether they have u-turned from the 2040 ban which was in their election manifesto or still aiming for it)
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@afewbugs @JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @mpjgregoire
A lot of this is likely paranoia that the Greens will make it impossible to own/drive private cars or will ban ICE cars too early - although this seems to be increasingly unlikely (but the Greens aren't admitting to whether they have u-turned from the 2040 ban which was in their election manifesto or still aiming for it)
@vfrmedia @afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @mpjgregoire
I would hope Greens in power would mean greater support for public transport, cycling networks and EV infrastructure and sales to make the banning of the sale of new ICE vehicles look like a realistic prospect, rather than jumping off a cliff.
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@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @afewbugs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
if the article and you all here are right, and almost everyone want to end #carnism and #motornormativity, then why does it continue?
the article in #theguardian place the responsibility on a "minority rightwing voices" that are somehow forcing the ecoconcious majority to eat #pigs and drive #cars despite not really wanting to.
did they swap your #tofu with pig sausages in your shopping basket or your fridge? did they hypnotize you to buy a #tesla against your will instead of an #ebike?
in my view, a much more likely answer is a hypocritical mentality of "everyone else are the problem", which would also explain the underestimated support for green policies.
a climate spokesperson for the danish environmentalist party (#theresascavenious from #alternativet) was campaigning for a reduction in airplane travel, yet was regularly flying copenhagen - aalborg, and resolutely defending her right to this, despite there being excellent train connection on that journey.
most of my family support "#lessmeat", but oppose me fiercely when i suggest we eat one single #plantbased meal together.
often there is a direct connection of conscience laundering between supporting abstract policies while opposing actual tangible action right in front of us: we fill our plates with sausages made from pigs choked in a #gaschamber while me claim to support policies better #animalwelfare.
@pelle
I think a lot of it is well described by the same info and books like Manufacturing Consent... People think they're the only ones who feel this way and don't want to stick out from the crowd. There's also a lot of subsidies and sunk cost (of recipes and learning to cook certain ways with meat), so even if they want to it feels hard.
For me, getting rid of a car was not hard but going vegetarian is very hard. I like cooking but haven't found enough recipes I like that provide enough protein and other nutrients for my body to feel good. Eating less meat was easier when I had more free time and less stress - but life got harder and my diet got more meat in it again.
I'm sorry your family isn't working with you on vegan meals more, because I do think that is the way. Learning more tasty recipes and dishes and doing it in community feels like it could work even for busy people. The vegetarian recipes I know I learned that way...
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @afewbugs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire -
@pelle
I think a lot of it is well described by the same info and books like Manufacturing Consent... People think they're the only ones who feel this way and don't want to stick out from the crowd. There's also a lot of subsidies and sunk cost (of recipes and learning to cook certain ways with meat), so even if they want to it feels hard.
For me, getting rid of a car was not hard but going vegetarian is very hard. I like cooking but haven't found enough recipes I like that provide enough protein and other nutrients for my body to feel good. Eating less meat was easier when I had more free time and less stress - but life got harder and my diet got more meat in it again.
I'm sorry your family isn't working with you on vegan meals more, because I do think that is the way. Learning more tasty recipes and dishes and doing it in community feels like it could work even for busy people. The vegetarian recipes I know I learned that way...
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @afewbugs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire@thesquirrelfish
🥪 peanut butter sandwich if you have no free time and want a cheap high-protein meal.
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add chilisauce, sliced cucumber, and if you need more protein and umami: slices of smoked tofu or olive tapenade.🥣 also oat meal with nuts and berries. quick, cheap, healthy, easy, and most importantly: kill-free. #watchdominion
no need to overthink the #plantbased recipes.
however, i have some bad news about the author of that book you mentioned ... #noamchomskyjeffreyepstein
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@vfrmedia @afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @mpjgregoire
I would hope Greens in power would mean greater support for public transport, cycling networks and EV infrastructure and sales to make the banning of the sale of new ICE vehicles look like a realistic prospect, rather than jumping off a cliff.
@JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @afewbugs @pelle @mpjgregoire Sorry but why should EV infrastructure be publicly funded? E-cars are about proping up the motor industry, not about saving the planet. If we are serious about maintaining a livable planet then wasteful things like cars will have to go.
Over the 20th C our cities were remodeling to make way for cars, now we need to reverse the damage done to make space for people and nature
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@JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @afewbugs @pelle @mpjgregoire Sorry but why should EV infrastructure be publicly funded? E-cars are about proping up the motor industry, not about saving the planet. If we are serious about maintaining a livable planet then wasteful things like cars will have to go.
Over the 20th C our cities were remodeling to make way for cars, now we need to reverse the damage done to make space for people and nature
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @afewbugs @mpjgregoire
cars kill more than 200.000.000.000.000 animals each year, which alone should be enough to disqualify electric cars as "green".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadkill -
@JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @afewbugs @pelle @mpjgregoire Sorry but why should EV infrastructure be publicly funded? E-cars are about proping up the motor industry, not about saving the planet. If we are serious about maintaining a livable planet then wasteful things like cars will have to go.
Over the 20th C our cities were remodeling to make way for cars, now we need to reverse the damage done to make space for people and nature
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire I think this is a progress over perfection thing. In the long term we need to get rid of private vehicles, but realistically starting from the way we've structured the world now the intermediate step needs to be replacing ICEs with EVs and lack of charging infrastructure is holding that back. Not just for personal mobility but vans transporting goods too, there's less of clear path to overhauling goods logistic than transporting people
