Politicians of all stripes conveniently underestimate the public support for green and environmental policies.
-
@afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
But my family (partner, parents and brothers + partners, in-laws) would probably all describe themselves as left-wing and fairly progressive…but that just means they read the Guardian and work in schools/universities/emergency services.
Brits are not like our European neighbours when it comes to making changes to our lives on the basis of environmental beliefs.
@JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I have it easier than you do because my wife is vegan too, but my wider family sound like yours - all work or worked in the public sector, lifelong Guardian readers and Labour voters (although who knows who anyone will vote for next time). But they're all committed carnivores because they don't believe you can be healthy without meat and my brother recently bought one of those giant kidkiller SUVs and regularly flies on holiday
-
@JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I have it easier than you do because my wife is vegan too, but my wider family sound like yours - all work or worked in the public sector, lifelong Guardian readers and Labour voters (although who knows who anyone will vote for next time). But they're all committed carnivores because they don't believe you can be healthy without meat and my brother recently bought one of those giant kidkiller SUVs and regularly flies on holiday
@afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
Voting wise my lot are a mix of Labour and Lib Dems. They see Greens as too extreme and don’t trust Polanski, but won’t really explain why. I just cannot fathom some days their complacency around voting for the same stale politicians, thinking that it’s better to ‘play safe’ than actually achieve progress by daring to want better. Frogs in proverbial cooking pot.
-
@afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
Voting wise my lot are a mix of Labour and Lib Dems. They see Greens as too extreme and don’t trust Polanski, but won’t really explain why. I just cannot fathom some days their complacency around voting for the same stale politicians, thinking that it’s better to ‘play safe’ than actually achieve progress by daring to want better. Frogs in proverbial cooking pot.
@JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire "Extreme" is the word my parents use for the Greens too
-
@afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
I haven’t eaten meat since 2019, but no one else in my family has joined me - like your family they all think a diet without meat would be lacking in nutrients. I equally haven’t managed to persuade any of them to buy an EV or retrofit their homes in any way. I think they see me as eccentric. I admit it’s hard seeing the world so differently to how your loved ones do.
@JugglingWithEggs
> I haven’t eaten meat since 2019, but no one else in my family has joined meyes. it's countless stories like those that make me doubt that "89% hidden green majority" narrative.
where i live there's around 1% #vegans. i think that number reveals more about how many people will actually "give up" a "freedom" for major animal rights and environmental win (although, luckily we aren't giving up anything, because #plantbased foods taste soooo much better than #corpsebased).
-
P pelle@veganism.social shared this topic
-
@JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire "Extreme" is the word my parents use for the Greens too
@afewbugs @JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @mpjgregoire
A lot of this is likely paranoia that the Greens will make it impossible to own/drive private cars or will ban ICE cars too early - although this seems to be increasingly unlikely (but the Greens aren't admitting to whether they have u-turned from the 2040 ban which was in their election manifesto or still aiming for it)
-
@afewbugs @JugglingWithEggs @pelle @kim_harding @mpjgregoire
A lot of this is likely paranoia that the Greens will make it impossible to own/drive private cars or will ban ICE cars too early - although this seems to be increasingly unlikely (but the Greens aren't admitting to whether they have u-turned from the 2040 ban which was in their election manifesto or still aiming for it)
@vfrmedia @afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @mpjgregoire
I would hope Greens in power would mean greater support for public transport, cycling networks and EV infrastructure and sales to make the banning of the sale of new ICE vehicles look like a realistic prospect, rather than jumping off a cliff.
-
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @afewbugs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
if the article and you all here are right, and almost everyone want to end #carnism and #motornormativity, then why does it continue?
the article in #theguardian place the responsibility on a "minority rightwing voices" that are somehow forcing the ecoconcious majority to eat #pigs and drive #cars despite not really wanting to.
did they swap your #tofu with pig sausages in your shopping basket or your fridge? did they hypnotize you to buy a #tesla against your will instead of an #ebike?
in my view, a much more likely answer is a hypocritical mentality of "everyone else are the problem", which would also explain the underestimated support for green policies.
a climate spokesperson for the danish environmentalist party (#theresascavenious from #alternativet) was campaigning for a reduction in airplane travel, yet was regularly flying copenhagen - aalborg, and resolutely defending her right to this, despite there being excellent train connection on that journey.
most of my family support "#lessmeat", but oppose me fiercely when i suggest we eat one single #plantbased meal together.
often there is a direct connection of conscience laundering between supporting abstract policies while opposing actual tangible action right in front of us: we fill our plates with sausages made from pigs choked in a #gaschamber while me claim to support policies better #animalwelfare.
@pelle
I think a lot of it is well described by the same info and books like Manufacturing Consent... People think they're the only ones who feel this way and don't want to stick out from the crowd. There's also a lot of subsidies and sunk cost (of recipes and learning to cook certain ways with meat), so even if they want to it feels hard.
For me, getting rid of a car was not hard but going vegetarian is very hard. I like cooking but haven't found enough recipes I like that provide enough protein and other nutrients for my body to feel good. Eating less meat was easier when I had more free time and less stress - but life got harder and my diet got more meat in it again.
I'm sorry your family isn't working with you on vegan meals more, because I do think that is the way. Learning more tasty recipes and dishes and doing it in community feels like it could work even for busy people. The vegetarian recipes I know I learned that way...
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @afewbugs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire -
@pelle
I think a lot of it is well described by the same info and books like Manufacturing Consent... People think they're the only ones who feel this way and don't want to stick out from the crowd. There's also a lot of subsidies and sunk cost (of recipes and learning to cook certain ways with meat), so even if they want to it feels hard.
For me, getting rid of a car was not hard but going vegetarian is very hard. I like cooking but haven't found enough recipes I like that provide enough protein and other nutrients for my body to feel good. Eating less meat was easier when I had more free time and less stress - but life got harder and my diet got more meat in it again.
I'm sorry your family isn't working with you on vegan meals more, because I do think that is the way. Learning more tasty recipes and dishes and doing it in community feels like it could work even for busy people. The vegetarian recipes I know I learned that way...
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @afewbugs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire@thesquirrelfish
🥪 peanut butter sandwich if you have no free time and want a cheap high-protein meal.
️
add chilisauce, sliced cucumber, and if you need more protein and umami: slices of smoked tofu or olive tapenade.🥣 also oat meal with nuts and berries. quick, cheap, healthy, easy, and most importantly: kill-free. #watchdominion
no need to overthink the #plantbased recipes.
however, i have some bad news about the author of that book you mentioned ... #noamchomskyjeffreyepstein
-
@vfrmedia @afewbugs @pelle @kim_harding @mpjgregoire
I would hope Greens in power would mean greater support for public transport, cycling networks and EV infrastructure and sales to make the banning of the sale of new ICE vehicles look like a realistic prospect, rather than jumping off a cliff.
@JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @afewbugs @pelle @mpjgregoire Sorry but why should EV infrastructure be publicly funded? E-cars are about proping up the motor industry, not about saving the planet. If we are serious about maintaining a livable planet then wasteful things like cars will have to go.
Over the 20th C our cities were remodeling to make way for cars, now we need to reverse the damage done to make space for people and nature
-
@JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @afewbugs @pelle @mpjgregoire Sorry but why should EV infrastructure be publicly funded? E-cars are about proping up the motor industry, not about saving the planet. If we are serious about maintaining a livable planet then wasteful things like cars will have to go.
Over the 20th C our cities were remodeling to make way for cars, now we need to reverse the damage done to make space for people and nature
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @afewbugs @mpjgregoire
cars kill more than 200.000.000.000.000 animals each year, which alone should be enough to disqualify electric cars as "green".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadkill -
@JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @afewbugs @pelle @mpjgregoire Sorry but why should EV infrastructure be publicly funded? E-cars are about proping up the motor industry, not about saving the planet. If we are serious about maintaining a livable planet then wasteful things like cars will have to go.
Over the 20th C our cities were remodeling to make way for cars, now we need to reverse the damage done to make space for people and nature
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire I think this is a progress over perfection thing. In the long term we need to get rid of private vehicles, but realistically starting from the way we've structured the world now the intermediate step needs to be replacing ICEs with EVs and lack of charging infrastructure is holding that back. Not just for personal mobility but vans transporting goods too, there's less of clear path to overhauling goods logistic than transporting people
-
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire I think this is a progress over perfection thing. In the long term we need to get rid of private vehicles, but realistically starting from the way we've structured the world now the intermediate step needs to be replacing ICEs with EVs and lack of charging infrastructure is holding that back. Not just for personal mobility but vans transporting goods too, there's less of clear path to overhauling goods logistic than transporting people
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire But I would definitely like to see that alongside massive investment in public transport, safe cycling infrastructure and rural broadband as well as rent controls in areas close to employment to reduce the amount of commuting that has to happen in the first place
-
@kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @pelle @mpjgregoire But I would definitely like to see that alongside massive investment in public transport, safe cycling infrastructure and rural broadband as well as rent controls in areas close to employment to reduce the amount of commuting that has to happen in the first place
@afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
#electriccars are a fake #greenwashing solution, like #carboncapture, or like the danish "climate NGOs" telling people to drop cows and eat pigs instead to reduce CO₂:
> At the moment, an electric car of 60 kilowatt hours (kWh) consuming 20 kilowatt hours per 100 kilometers would have to cover exactly 697,612 km before it is greener than an average petrol car that consumes six liters per 100 kilometers. This is what the Autogids.be website reports.
https://www.ad.nl/auto/bericht-over-vuile-elektrische-auto-klopt-in-de-verste-verte-niet~a03b9a02/?slug_rd=1 -
@afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
#electriccars are a fake #greenwashing solution, like #carboncapture, or like the danish "climate NGOs" telling people to drop cows and eat pigs instead to reduce CO₂:
> At the moment, an electric car of 60 kilowatt hours (kWh) consuming 20 kilowatt hours per 100 kilometers would have to cover exactly 697,612 km before it is greener than an average petrol car that consumes six liters per 100 kilometers. This is what the Autogids.be website reports.
https://www.ad.nl/auto/bericht-over-vuile-elektrische-auto-klopt-in-de-verste-verte-niet~a03b9a02/?slug_rd=1@pelle @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I actually support both of those examples as harm reduction measures - I would prefer it if people stopped eating animals altogether and we moved away from private vehicles entirely, but realistically that's not going to happen immediately and until we get there, if people won't give up meat entirely then switching from beef to pork will at least reduce carbon emissions, as will petrol to electric vehicle, and every gram of warming
-
@afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
#electriccars are a fake #greenwashing solution, like #carboncapture, or like the danish "climate NGOs" telling people to drop cows and eat pigs instead to reduce CO₂:
> At the moment, an electric car of 60 kilowatt hours (kWh) consuming 20 kilowatt hours per 100 kilometers would have to cover exactly 697,612 km before it is greener than an average petrol car that consumes six liters per 100 kilometers. This is what the Autogids.be website reports.
https://www.ad.nl/auto/bericht-over-vuile-elektrische-auto-klopt-in-de-verste-verte-niet~a03b9a02/?slug_rd=1@pelle @afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire There's a lot wrong with EVs, but that 700k km figure is absolute nonsense. For example, the calculation ascribes huge CO2 emmissions to battery production but none to petrol production. The actual break-even point is already easily below the life mileage of an average car and is only going to come down as the grid gets greener and battery tech improves.
-
@pelle @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I actually support both of those examples as harm reduction measures - I would prefer it if people stopped eating animals altogether and we moved away from private vehicles entirely, but realistically that's not going to happen immediately and until we get there, if people won't give up meat entirely then switching from beef to pork will at least reduce carbon emissions, as will petrol to electric vehicle, and every gram of warming
@afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
... and that's how you end up supporting sending millions of kids to #gaschambers as a "realistic" "green" policy.
-
@pelle @afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire There's a lot wrong with EVs, but that 700k km figure is absolute nonsense. For example, the calculation ascribes huge CO2 emmissions to battery production but none to petrol production. The actual break-even point is already easily below the life mileage of an average car and is only going to come down as the grid gets greener and battery tech improves.
@wav3ydave @afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
yes, but also the "correction" is based on secret numbers and hypotheticals:> The amount of CO2 that Ernst attributes to producing a battery of a modern electric car is ‘at least three times too high’, says Hoekstra. ,,And then I am still very careful. Those kinds of figures are very secret, no producer wants to say anything about it. [...] Hoekstra: ,,In the Netherlands, that number is still above 400. But if only half of the plans of the Climate Agreement are implemented, we will come to 200 over the years, I estimate.”
it is clear that electric cars do not eliminate the emissions; the car kill count i posted before still stands; and 1/4 of all the world's microplastic pollution is from car tyres. we can't talk about any cars being a "green" mode of transport in any sense of that word.
https://theconversation.com/car-tyres-shed-a-quarter-of-all-microplastics-in-the-environment-urgent-action-is-needed-244132 -
@wav3ydave @afewbugs @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
yes, but also the "correction" is based on secret numbers and hypotheticals:> The amount of CO2 that Ernst attributes to producing a battery of a modern electric car is ‘at least three times too high’, says Hoekstra. ,,And then I am still very careful. Those kinds of figures are very secret, no producer wants to say anything about it. [...] Hoekstra: ,,In the Netherlands, that number is still above 400. But if only half of the plans of the Climate Agreement are implemented, we will come to 200 over the years, I estimate.”
it is clear that electric cars do not eliminate the emissions; the car kill count i posted before still stands; and 1/4 of all the world's microplastic pollution is from car tyres. we can't talk about any cars being a "green" mode of transport in any sense of that word.
https://theconversation.com/car-tyres-shed-a-quarter-of-all-microplastics-in-the-environment-urgent-action-is-needed-244132@pelle @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I don't think anyone's arguing that evs are a "green" or good thing, just les damaging than petrol cars, and our disagreement is over whether it's worth going for a little less damage now or whether it's possible to go for the complete elimination of damage immediately
-
@pelle @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire I don't think anyone's arguing that evs are a "green" or good thing, just les damaging than petrol cars, and our disagreement is over whether it's worth going for a little less damage now or whether it's possible to go for the complete elimination of damage immediately
@afewbugs @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
the question is: less damage than what?if i hit you in the face with a baseball bat, i could argue that it caused much less damage than the gun i was about to shoot you with, so you should be thankful to me that i reduced harm to you.
of course this is absurd, because it is unnecessary for me to attack you in the first place — just like it is unnecessary to eat animals.
in that way #lesserevilism / #lessharm / #lessmeat can lead to acceptance of a lot of evil, harm and meat eating.
last time i listened to a speech by someone from #effectivealtruism, she did a long presentation to explain how they could reduce harm by spending an awful lot of money on donating farming equipment to fish farms.
-
@afewbugs @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire
the question is: less damage than what?if i hit you in the face with a baseball bat, i could argue that it caused much less damage than the gun i was about to shoot you with, so you should be thankful to me that i reduced harm to you.
of course this is absurd, because it is unnecessary for me to attack you in the first place — just like it is unnecessary to eat animals.
in that way #lesserevilism / #lessharm / #lessmeat can lead to acceptance of a lot of evil, harm and meat eating.
last time i listened to a speech by someone from #effectivealtruism, she did a long presentation to explain how they could reduce harm by spending an awful lot of money on donating farming equipment to fish farms.
@pelle @wav3ydave @kim_harding @JugglingWithEggs @vfrmedia @mpjgregoire okay I'll take your mildly threatening analogy and work with it.
If you were determined to harm me, I would rather you hit me in the face with a baseball bat than shot me, because in one scenario I would be injured and in one I would be dead, so yes I would support a harm reduction approach. Where I hope this is serving as a climate behaviour analogy and not an actual threat is in understanding why you wanted to harm me,
