Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson @carnage4life Not sure anyone is particularly shouting for journalists to join? Like, I've not found myself gagging for them to spice up a conversation.
Numbers down? Maybe people have figured out that social media is bad for their mental health?
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson ironically this is far too nuanced and complex of a discussion to have on a “roughly one para and maybe a pic” social network platform. This has to be blogged. Seriously.
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@scottjenson ironically this is far too nuanced and complex of a discussion to have on a “roughly one para and maybe a pic” social network platform. This has to be blogged. Seriously.
@codinghorror You're absolutely correct. Part of my method (which I'm fairly transparent about) is that I make these provocations just to test the waters, see what people say, and how the conversation flows. It's basically research for the blog post.
I've gotten some extremely thoughtful comments that have made me rethink several of my original points.
I've even been accused of "baiting" some people which isn't entirely unfair either. It's helpful to 'poke the bear' occassionally
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson hypothesis: caring about "tech news" is a different thing from caring about technology
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@scottjenson @carnage4life Not sure anyone is particularly shouting for journalists to join? Like, I've not found myself gagging for them to spice up a conversation.
Numbers down? Maybe people have figured out that social media is bad for their mental health?
@awfulwoman Two very separate points:
1. Do you (or even many others) want journalists here? The is a very personal choice and you can want (or not want) anything you wish. That isn't really what's on the table.
2. Should Journalists be allowed to be here? I think you know where I stand on this. It's a subtle point (one which I was just reminded maybe shouldn't be discussed in Post form) But I do believe that encouraging a wider range of voices is critical to our success in building out a robust social media landscape. We can't gatekeep and only let in "the right folks" that of course is impossible as that definition varies for every person here. -
@scottjenson I wonder if the days of online social media of any kind may be drawing to a close. The notions that these spaces provide a form of authentic community, or impart a meaningful sense of solidarity, are being revealed as illusions. And that may be no bad thing.
@lowtech That's a very thoughtful point, thank you. I'd argue the majority of the 'negative replies' I've been getting such as equating anyone wanting to discuss AI as scumbags actually feeds into your point. These people strongly feel there is a "community standard" that needs to be upheld and enforced. Its critical, in their minds, that we chase people away that aren't part of our 'authentic community'.
I tend to agree with you, there is no such thing as that. We clearly want there to be safety and there are basic rules that should be enforced, but "Subject matter" tests of what is allowed and what isn't feels like an impossible goal.
It's actually why I made my post, I know these people would come out of the woodwork. I just wanted to see how they'd frame their arguements.
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@spazcosoft You sound nice
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> But my main point is that welcoming marginalized groups should be the focus, not opinions about AI
i am very very much in alignment with this.
@toddsundsted @dgodon Too many people thought I was *defending* the entire AI industry and worse, comparing it directly to Black Twitter. Hey it's social media, posts are short, it's easy to connect the dots the wrong way.
My poor writing skills aside, my point was what I think you both are saying: it's a slippery slope. It's no secret that black twitter was not made welcome here (it's a very complex topic but there is some truth to it).
My point wasn't that techbros needed support or coddling but the idea that we "allow" people to be here based on some type of ideological purity test is guaranteed to bite us in the ass. Too many people here get holier than thou and feel morally obligated to harass people. It's short sighted.
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@scottjenson What does "AI journalist" mean to you?
@EveHasWords what does that matter?
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@scottjenson hypothesis: caring about "tech news" is a different thing from caring about technology
@ireneista My comment had literally nothing to do with AI, technology, or technology news. It was about inclusivity and I just used this one post as an example of someone getting 'tone policed' by the Mastodon community.
I really don't care what your opinions are on AI, that's not my point my point is that you should be encouraged to have any view you want! for Mastodon to thrive all sorts of people need to come and find their own communities. I'm against people thinking they need to sharp who comes here. It's horribly short sighted.
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@ireneista My comment had literally nothing to do with AI, technology, or technology news. It was about inclusivity and I just used this one post as an example of someone getting 'tone policed' by the Mastodon community.
I really don't care what your opinions are on AI, that's not my point my point is that you should be encouraged to have any view you want! for Mastodon to thrive all sorts of people need to come and find their own communities. I'm against people thinking they need to sharp who comes here. It's horribly short sighted.
@scottjenson we didn't even mention "AI"
the thing you're quoting was about "tech news". we put that phrase in quotes to call attention to the fact we were directly quoting it. our apologies if that was less clear than we hoped.
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@scottjenson we didn't even mention "AI"
the thing you're quoting was about "tech news". we put that phrase in quotes to call attention to the fact we were directly quoting it. our apologies if that was less clear than we hoped.
@scottjenson you've clearly bucketed us into some specific category before even talking to us, but, like... whatever cliche you're imagining, we're not that.
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@scottjenson you've clearly bucketed us into some specific category before even talking to us, but, like... whatever cliche you're imagining, we're not that.
@scottjenson our point was that journalists have specific goals in their engagement with social venues, and the nature of those goals shapes the reactions they get and that can't be separated from the way journalists view those places.
it's a really super-specific use-case that the person you're quoting talks about, so we responded to that, because it didn't even occur to us you were trying to generalize it to a statement about everybody
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@scottjenson our point was that journalists have specific goals in their engagement with social venues, and the nature of those goals shapes the reactions they get and that can't be separated from the way journalists view those places.
it's a really super-specific use-case that the person you're quoting talks about, so we responded to that, because it didn't even occur to us you were trying to generalize it to a statement about everybody
@scottjenson for the record, we think such generalization is facially absurd
we'd normally have found some polite way to say that, but it turns out reacting as if we're someone else is a fast way to get us angry
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@evan @scottjenson @MozillaAI Mastodon as a community is quite hostile to AI and anything that isn’t a criticism of AI is viewed with skepticism at best and typically with hostility as the default.
It’s unfortunate because, as in your Mozilla example, there is still time to shape how AI is used in our industry. It’s better to engage and try to influence it versus stick your head in the sand and have the change thrusted upon you.
@carnage4life @evan @scottjenson @MozillaAI I thought this was a very astute way to put it.
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@awfulwoman Two very separate points:
1. Do you (or even many others) want journalists here? The is a very personal choice and you can want (or not want) anything you wish. That isn't really what's on the table.
2. Should Journalists be allowed to be here? I think you know where I stand on this. It's a subtle point (one which I was just reminded maybe shouldn't be discussed in Post form) But I do believe that encouraging a wider range of voices is critical to our success in building out a robust social media landscape. We can't gatekeep and only let in "the right folks" that of course is impossible as that definition varies for every person here.@scottjenson let’s rephrase it then: I’m highly indifferent to journalists being on here. And that’s very different from “let’s change the culture of the fediverse to encourage them to join”.
And don’t get me wrong, the culture on here can be fucking annoying - I swear I will launch through the screen at the next humourless “yes, but” German furry response to one of my posts.
But if the nature of the fediverse isn’t inimical to journalism then is that something to change, or accept as a fact?
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@scottjenson for the record, we think such generalization is facially absurd
we'd normally have found some polite way to say that, but it turns out reacting as if we're someone else is a fast way to get us angry
@scottjenson we have a great deal of respect for your work and didn't mean to get quite that upset. for the record.
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@scottjenson let’s rephrase it then: I’m highly indifferent to journalists being on here. And that’s very different from “let’s change the culture of the fediverse to encourage them to join”.
And don’t get me wrong, the culture on here can be fucking annoying - I swear I will launch through the screen at the next humourless “yes, but” German furry response to one of my posts.
But if the nature of the fediverse isn’t inimical to journalism then is that something to change, or accept as a fact?
@scottjenson I certainly don’t miss people boosting their work for clicks or career advancement. And again, that isn’t the same as “professional journalists are unwelcome”. I just won’t engage with that. But will I engage with some producing interesting work that matches my interests? Certainly.
That I (and I suspect, others) don’t automatically see those as being the same thing is probably the issue.
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@EveHasWords what does that matter?
@scottjenson If “AI journalist” in this context means that a legitimate, actual journalist doing real journalism about LLM companies and developers has been chased off the Fediverse, it would matter a great deal. If it’s AI boosters and regurgitators of startup press releases and marketing done under the flag of access journalism, I’m much less concerned.
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@scottjenson I certainly don’t miss people boosting their work for clicks or career advancement. And again, that isn’t the same as “professional journalists are unwelcome”. I just won’t engage with that. But will I engage with some producing interesting work that matches my interests? Certainly.
That I (and I suspect, others) don’t automatically see those as being the same thing is probably the issue.
@scottjenson I think the typical Mastodon user certainly does have severe problem with how they interact with others. That’s a function of the personality/brain type that gets attracted here. I’m certainly not a fan of that, and yes it creates a monoculture of interaction style- but I will infinitely take it over the Big Tent “let’s all homogeneously scream in public” paradigm of Twitter where there was a monoculture of *content* style.
