Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt if there are reasons this cannot be an add-on, then THAT is the discussion you should be having with the community. Because that is the barrier you have not addressed and it is what makes a kill switch so peculiar.
I don't appreciate your defensiveness, and false transparency posturing. You are prepared to ask for clarity from people asking softball questions, but you're ignoring the slew of "make it an add-on" suggestions
@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt it seems weird to say I'm ignoring it while I'm replying to your messages about it. Whereas you're moving the goalposts on what you want from explicit install to pre-install https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115854752514107340
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt if there are reasons this cannot be an add-on, then THAT is the discussion you should be having with the community. Because that is the barrier you have not addressed and it is what makes a kill switch so peculiar.
I don't appreciate your defensiveness, and false transparency posturing. You are prepared to ask for clarity from people asking softball questions, but you're ignoring the slew of "make it an add-on" suggestions
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt and you've just done it to me by saying that a mention of "explicit install" throws the baby out with the bathwater.
You've called @davidgerard 's position "immutable" as if we're unable to have a serious, unified stance against a very clear overstep between a passive web browser and the encroachment of something which is not that.
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt only a couple of messages ago you said it would be an "add-on that the user has to explicitly install".
That sounds pretty different to pre-installing.
Can you see how, by taking your comment at face value, I assumed you meant the user would need to explicitly install it?
@firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @davidgerard @zzt hey, that is what I meant when I typed it. I want the AI features to be so optional, that the end user has to go out of their way to install them as add-ons. That is what I meant when I said it.
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt it seems weird to say I'm ignoring it while I'm replying to your messages about it. Whereas you're moving the goalposts on what you want from explicit install to pre-install https://mastodon.social/@firefoxwebdevs/115854752514107340
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt it seems weird that you think I'm going to play word games with you as if you don't have a hundred *written* responses to your poll saying that the kill switch is unnecessary if these were all add-ons.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs I'm not voting in that poll, needs a "No AI" option.
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt
Given the poll was about translations, the option you wanted would amount to unshipping a largely well-regarded feature.
Again, did you seriously and honestly believe that was on the table for Firefox 148?
@firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt Honestly, why not? You've done it before. Pocket, classic browser extensions, Chatzilla, a usable address bar, the option to switch back to a usable address bar, plugins, ... all "unshipped" and that's just off the top of my head.
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@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard
Missing option, if shouldn't be in the browser code in the first place. It should be an add-on that the user has to explicitly install.
A suspect lot of people voted for the, "but allow it to re-enabled," option due to it being the least shitty choice presented. Not because that is the behavior they actually desire.
I suspect, even more, that lack of ranked choice voting is hurting hard here.
A lot of people probably voted for the option presented that was closest to what they actually want. What they actually wabt isn't an option because Mozilla won't consider it.
But of the remaining options, there's a preference they'd have over the one they voted for.
Giving people a poll where the options they want are deliberately included is going to generate bad results which will only result in upsetting the community even more, because now you'll claim to have consent..
@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard
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@davidgerard @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt I realise your position is immutable, but I've already used the results of this survey to push for a change to the design of the kill switch. I'm grateful to everyone who responded.
@firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt
I'm not sure an official firefox account is allowed to make passive-aggressive snipes about "immutable positions", especially when it comes to AI.
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@autonomousapps @StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard They have studies showing that if they show the AI results first, a significant proportion of google users stay on google (to explore the AI results) rather than following outbound links to the public web. Thereby giving google more opportunities to shove google's own ads under the users noses.
It really *is* that moronic.
@cstross @StarkRG @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard oh geeze. I'm clearly in the minority. Thanks for explaining!
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@firefoxwebdevs The frame of this question is risible.
I am begging you to just make a web browser.
Make it the best browser for the open web. Make it a browser that empowers individuals. Make it a browser that defends users against threats.
Do not make a search engine. Do not make a translation engine. Do not make a webpage summariser. Do not make a front-end for an LLM. Do not make a client-side LLM.
Just. Make. A. Web. Browser.
Please.
@m0rpk I second this.
I cannot for the love of me think about a moment where I opened my webbrowser and thought:
- "I miss a search engine"
- "I miss a translation engine"
- "I miss webpage summariser"
- "I miss an LLM front-end" (I don't even use LLMs)
- "I miss a client-side LLM"I just wanna open my webbrowser and not be bothered by anything dammit...
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@nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast Also, the destiny of all software kill switches against a marketing-driven feature is to be removed a year later. Our dude seems to think Mastodon users have no experience of the computer industry.
@davidgerard @nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast It's not a switch, it's a rug. You can sweep stuff under it, and you can do the rug pull at any future date.
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Hi @DiogoConstantino question was “Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand (machine learning, subset of artificial intelligence that automatically enables a machine or system to learn & improve from experience-https://cloud.google.com/learn/artificial-intelligence-vs-machine-learning) ML models for privacy-preserving translation.”
That’s what I responded to. I did not advocate to remove “Translations as an accessibility feature”. Rather to allow the user to select & consent to the feature with a specific implementation.@dahukanna@mastodon.social @DiogoConstantino@masto.pt @firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social Machine Learning is a field that's wider and older than the LLM/diffusion/whatever mess that's been marketed as "AI" and led to the current bubble. Labeling it as "a subset of artificial intelligence" is at best a simplification and at worst an outright manipulation to confuse the public about the realities of the technology. Google is not a trustworthy source for this topic.
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@davidgerard @nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast
Who are you to know, it's not like your name is in the firefox credits or something
/s@sotolf @nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast no it's in the *mozilla* credits
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@firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt Honestly, why not? You've done it before. Pocket, classic browser extensions, Chatzilla, a usable address bar, the option to switch back to a usable address bar, plugins, ... all "unshipped" and that's just off the top of my head.
@barubary @firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt Nevermind that the origin of Firefox *itself*, back when it was an experimental rogue project named Phoenix, was to jettison the accumulated weight of Mozilla Suite and move all the bells and whistles to optional add-ons. Back when the browser also included an e-mail, Usenet, calendar, and chat app that couldn't be turned off. Mozilla is actively unlearning the original lesson of Firefox's wild success.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs@mastodon.social i maintain that the "AI kill switch" is a stupid name for such a feature. Stop calling it AI, this term is meaningless as indicated by the disagreement in this poll. You should rephrase it in a way that makes it more obvious what features would be included.
I mostly care about the AI kill switch from a privacy standpoint. I don't want any chatbot sidebar, or a summarization tool that sends my stuff off to some API. But I do like device-local ML features that work offline.
For me, these two toggles would be perfect:
[ X ] Enable ML features
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\-- [ ] Enable ML features that require an Internet connection.
Turning off the top one would obviously disable translations. But turning off just the bottom one would obviously keep translations. -
@sotolf @nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast no it's in the *mozilla* credits
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@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt and you've just done it to me by saying that a mention of "explicit install" throws the baby out with the bathwater.
You've called @davidgerard 's position "immutable" as if we're unable to have a serious, unified stance against a very clear overstep between a passive web browser and the encroachment of something which is not that.
@fasterandworse @firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @zzt every accusation is a confession. he's admitted after that accusation that in fact he considers the AI immutable.
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@davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @zzt honestly the way Mozilla is going it's more likely they instead break the extension API to prop up their ad businesses
@gourd @firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @zzt the CEO literally floated doing just that
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@sotolf @nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast (specifically i cowrote the Mozilla 1.0 FAQ. I got a Mozilla 1.0 CD as a thank you! So many hours in the volunteer documentation mines ... I had to write XSLT ...)
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@barubary @firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt Nevermind that the origin of Firefox *itself*, back when it was an experimental rogue project named Phoenix, was to jettison the accumulated weight of Mozilla Suite and move all the bells and whistles to optional add-ons. Back when the browser also included an e-mail, Usenet, calendar, and chat app that couldn't be turned off. Mozilla is actively unlearning the original lesson of Firefox's wild success.
@barubary @firefoxwebdevs @fasterandworse @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt I can only assume that Mozilla is angling to be bought by AOL Time Warner like Netscape was.
