Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@firefoxwebdevs The frame of this question is risible.
I am begging you to just make a web browser.
Make it the best browser for the open web. Make it a browser that empowers individuals. Make it a browser that defends users against threats.
Do not make a search engine. Do not make a translation engine. Do not make a webpage summariser. Do not make a front-end for an LLM. Do not make a client-side LLM.
Just. Make. A. Web. Browser.
Please.
I think it's OK if they make *some* of those things... provided they aren't baked into the browser or installed with it by default.
(A search engine and a translator plugin seem fine. LLM stuff can eff right off.)
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@firefoxwebdevs I disagree with the premise.
@rowmyboat @firefoxwebdevs Yep. It's exactly what the parents of a toddler do when they want the child to feel like it has control. "You can have ANYTHING you want, so what's it gonna be, apple or banana?"
It's insulting
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@OliviaVespera @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante Waterfox has pledged no AI and won't be accepting those bits. So has Zen.
@reflex @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante I meant can I respond to the poll. But i guess now I see the OP I see what I should do.
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@firefoxwebdevs @sotolf @m Dark patterns aren't aligned with the principles of informed consent. I think most would agree that facebook preinstalled on a phone isn't opt-in.
It is insane to believe that your users would believe you when you say that a feature is "opt-in" because "you don't have to click on it."
I used to be a defender of firefox/mozilla (including efforts like the translations and common voice) but this saga has been souring me on all of it.
Please consider splitting things into addons.
The recent thunderbird mobile changes (and mozilla's response to feedback there) have been awful and leave me wanting to stay away from all things mozilla going forward.
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@fmasy @Rycochet @firefoxwebdevs @zzt You can look at the discussions on Mozilla Connect if you want commentary from community members.
Mozilla does occasionally run surveys, but results are never public.
@yoasif @Rycochet @firefoxwebdevs @zzt Ok, Thanks. Interesting, I will do my search here
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@jaffathecake @davidgerard @zzt @firefoxwebdevs
brother what the hell are you even fighting for here lmfao
@TheEntity it's fair to say I dislike things being attributed to me that I didn't say & aren't true.
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt I don't think taking you at your word is playing word games. You meant what you said.
That aside, rearchitecting multiple large features to be plugins won't be possible for Firefox 148, and imo we need that kill switch _yesterday_.
Anyway, it's the end of the day for me now. I appreciate the robust discussion.
@firefoxwebdevs @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt I'd actually like to have a discussion about what it would entail to convert features, ones which are not contributing to the rendering of web pages, into add-ons, regardless of how quickly it could be done.
It would be good to know more detail around what you mean when you say "we need the kill switch yesterday" compared to the about:config and preferences page options we have now? Is there more invasive AI we aren't aware of?
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@firefoxwebdevs It would also be compelling if a team at Mozilla were dedicated to building the best browser translation add-on on the market, for all browsers. To promote the power of add-ons and, at the same time, the Mozilla brand.
@fasterandworse @firefoxwebdevs this exactly
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs While I understand some people actually appreciate translations, this part should be an extension. I don’t understand why you have to build it either.
To me, the translation part is just annoying. If I don’t understand a language I’ll find the content in a language I do. The translations are horrible (seriously) anyway. This also brings jobs to proper translators who know what they are doing (and understand context and culture).
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@TheEntity it's fair to say I dislike things being attributed to me that I didn't say & aren't true.
@jaffathecake Have you defended your e-bushido on the term killswitch yet
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Let's ask the real question:
Firefox users,
do you want any AI directly built into Firefox, or separated out into extensions?
@duke_of_germany Das nenne ich mal eindeutiges Feedback
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@rose_alibi
i like the #firefox #translation because it helps make the web less US-centric by making international web more accssible.#firefox #translations actually respect privacy, as opposed to #googletranslate, so i can use them for the government websites that i don't always understand, because i'm not swedish speaker.
i don't get why this feature is lumped in with the privacy nightmare chat bots?
@pelle @rose_alibi because they're trying to launder the chatbots by equating them with long pre-existing uses of ML that don't need an ever expanding slop machine to work.
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@reflex @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante I meant can I respond to the poll. But i guess now I see the OP I see what I should do.
@OliviaVespera @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante lol I misread you sorry!
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@TheEntity @firefoxwebdevs @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt yeah this accusation turned out to be a confession, when he admitted the "don't include it" option wasn't in because AI was his immutable position
@davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @zzt
Also that reply's worth reading very carefully.
You said we all know this is noise and Mozilla will do whatever.
His reply was he's using the results "to push for a change". Not that said change will actually happen.
So nothing you said was ruled out or denied.
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@fasterandworse @heptapodEnthusiast @nuintari @davidgerard @zzt I don't think taking you at your word is playing word games. You meant what you said.
That aside, rearchitecting multiple large features to be plugins won't be possible for Firefox 148, and imo we need that kill switch _yesterday_.
Anyway, it's the end of the day for me now. I appreciate the robust discussion.
@firefoxwebdevs You are reading the words we write without making any visible attempt to understand why we are writing them. You and I and pretty much everyone else in this thread are flesh and blood human beings, not LLMs. We fleshy things say words because we have opinions, beliefs, feelings, and goals. Language models lack all of those things, having only matrices of weights that encode statistical estimates of likely sentences and paragraphs. Perhaps you've spent too much time interacting with LLMs and you've forgotten that people are more than statistical word producers? Because you speak to us, and of us, like we're defective models that aren't accepting your commands.
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@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast I mean, this is the same account that recently posted that they hope Firefox can regain the trust of its user base.
Nonsense like this isn't making that happen.
The choices as you present them are all, "AI code for everyone, but you can turn it off!" Except the kill switch feature doesn't even exist yet and you are already carving it up with exceptions. If your current trajectory holds true, and I'll bet good money it does, the kill switch is going to end up being nothing but exceptions, rendering it effectively useless.
@nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @heptapodEnthusiast
We here at Firefox are eager to regain the trust of the user base. That's why we're sending our most annoying reply guy to play stupid word games on Mastodon.
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