They pay $34 for burgers.
-
They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.
The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.
️The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."
It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.
"@mekkaokereke it's just infuriating. it's not free! it's tax-supported, and if the system is working right, rich people pay more in taxes.
-
They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.
The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.
️The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."
It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.
"@mekkaokereke if rich people use a service, they are more likely to be listened to if they complain about the standard of service, and will likely use their greater leverage to make it happen. If rich and poor are using the same services (assuming that poor are not ghettoized) then the level of service will rise for all.
-
They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.
The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.
️The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."
It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.
"@mekkaokereke I mean the obvious retort is - of course their childcare isn't free. What do you think taxes are?
-
@realtegan @mekkaokereke Sigh. I really hate the mindset of “what if someone undeserving benefits.”
So what? Especially when it involves children.
@CStamp @realtegan @mekkaokereke also, means testing is expensive, hard, and sucks. The most cost-effective way to help everyone who deserves it, is to help everyone.
-
Long answer:
Some of the first Americans were Puritans. They brought with them some of the most toxic viewpoints, and they are still present in US society:
1) Prosperity gospel: God blesses good people that work hard. Having money is a blessing! So if I'm rich? That means that God loves me! I can prove how much God loves me by getting richer!
2) Means Testing: "lazy" or "unworthy" people should get nothing. So if you are poor? That means that you are lazy, and that God hates you! You did this to yourself!
The reality, of course is that rich early Americans were rich because they owned things: land, slaves, mills, etc. And early poor Americans were poor because they didn't own things and worked for greedy people that did own things. Or in the case of Black people, because they were owned.
But it's beyond race: in this dichotomy of deserving and undeserving, an Irish American sharecropper or slave overseer, was lazy, undeserving and seeking a handout, but an English American land owner was hard working.
Gangs of New York opening scene:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QqPqUcNKnVgIrish people and Catholics eventually "earned their whiteness" in the US, and adopted many of the Puritan ideals that were ones used against them.
-
They pay $34 for burgers. Should their fire department service be free? Opening a new fire department in one of NYC's richest neighborhoods has some of America's pettiest journalists asking silly questions in headlines again.
The article acknowledges the fire department analogy, then blows past it.
️The solve for "Sometimes when a service like free childcare is available to all, marginalized communities get squeezed out," is "Address that racism."
It's not "Therefore waste incredible amounts of time and money trying to means test something that society should just make available to all.
"@mekkaokereke @FknHannu wait, do you guys not pay $34 for burgers? Thats like the average cost for 2 burgers where i live...
-
@mekkaokereke
When school lunch programs throw out the "who deserves to get free lunches?" and just provide for every child, the entire program is cheaper due to the lack of an enforcement layer, all children get fed, and children learn more and pay attention better.Being overly concerned that someone might get something they don't "deserve" usually ends up screwing over the ones who need help most.
We're supposed to "promote the general welfare" of the public - not gate-keep who gets help.
@realtegan @mekkaokereke
Well said. In the same way, I wish the MBTA here (transit) would spend less on fare collection gates, watchdog personnel, cameras, April Fools jokes, and spinning "fare evaders" as the core problem, and instead move toward true universal public service.After decades of inefficiency, it's hard for me to believe they care. But I have hope that _some_ MBTA employees do care enough for change, and it's a topic I will continue to bring up a lot.
-
@HRCH @mekkaokereke It does. They're mostly locally-funded, which means that effectively, the wealthier the community you live in, the better public services you get.
So people in upper-middle-class communities get public swimming pools and schools with a good teacher:student ratio. People in poor communities get overcrowded schools, and severely limited library hours.. for example.
-
@realtegan @mekkaokereke
My pet hate.
When you start to "means test" something that really should be universal the means test itself costs money to administer and you create a barrier to some of those who should be benefiting but may not be able to navigate the red tape required for many many reasons.@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke I used to make software for calculation of the distribution of social welfare (we were actually hard limited in how much we could give, because we were the student government redistributing money between students, so it was justified in my opinion) and oh dear is it not free to figure out if someone should get something if you calculate how rich or poor they are
-
@realtegan @mekkaokereke
Well said. In the same way, I wish the MBTA here (transit) would spend less on fare collection gates, watchdog personnel, cameras, April Fools jokes, and spinning "fare evaders" as the core problem, and instead move toward true universal public service.After decades of inefficiency, it's hard for me to believe they care. But I have hope that _some_ MBTA employees do care enough for change, and it's a topic I will continue to bring up a lot.
@almonds @mekkaokereke
Free transit is another thing that would help so many people. Inner city travel shouldn't have a fare. Getting around easily helps the economy of a city. Artificially restricting travel is like cutting off the blood supply. A city thrives when its citizens can move and DO things.A lot of people think only of their little place - they don't look at the entire system and how it ought to function. Some things being widely available just make everything better for everyone.
-
@raymierussell @realtegan @mekkaokereke I used to make software for calculation of the distribution of social welfare (we were actually hard limited in how much we could give, because we were the student government redistributing money between students, so it was justified in my opinion) and oh dear is it not free to figure out if someone should get something if you calculate how rich or poor they are
@nicolai
classic paradox in the UK welfare system is that right leaning people will complain about fraud in the system. Its true that there is fraud BUT there is 10 times (at least) in unclaimed benefits because the system is so difficult to navigate. -
@realtegan @mekkaokereke
My pet hate.
When you start to "means test" something that really should be universal the means test itself costs money to administer and you create a barrier to some of those who should be benefiting but may not be able to navigate the red tape required for many many reasons.
And we already have the right machinery to recover the money from those who don't need it: it's called the tax system. Fox that instead of introducing program-by-program assessments. -
And we already have the right machinery to recover the money from those who don't need it: it's called the tax system. Fox that instead of introducing program-by-program assessments.@EricLawton @realtegan @mekkaokereke @bonaventuresoft
Absolutely, if you tax those who can afford it then there should no complaints about them getting 'free' stuff as they are getting out from a system that they have paid the most into.
-
Trying to carve out a "special" class who are entitled to school lunch has always been a foolish approach that just adds layers of expensive policing that INEVITABLY wind up costing more than they save, and preventing some number of eligible students from getting serviced.
Unfortunately, some people are always more focused on the remote or insignificant risk of cheaters, than they are on make sure that they are servicing those who need it
Just make it free to all
@screwturn @realtegan @mekkaokereke
Yup. School lunch should be free for all.
Want to make sure that people who make more than some arbitrary amount don't get freebies? Tax the rich.
-
@screwturn @realtegan @mekkaokereke
Yup. School lunch should be free for all.
Want to make sure that people who make more than some arbitrary amount don't get freebies? Tax the rich.
School lunch
Education
Public transit
Basic healthcareShould all be free at point of use
-
School lunch
Education
Public transit
Basic healthcareShould all be free at point of use
@screwturn @wakejagr @mekkaokereke
Life = Basic healthcare, school lunch
Liberty = Public transit
Pursuit of Happiness = EducationAnd so on. You can map the basics to the preamble and come up with a good list of things that Promote the General Welfare of the people and should be free at point of use in order to make a more perfect union.
Not everything should be free, but providing the basics should be the main purpose of a good government.
-
Long answer:
Some of the first Americans were Puritans. They brought with them some of the most toxic viewpoints, and they are still present in US society:
1) Prosperity gospel: God blesses good people that work hard. Having money is a blessing! So if I'm rich? That means that God loves me! I can prove how much God loves me by getting richer!
2) Means Testing: "lazy" or "unworthy" people should get nothing. So if you are poor? That means that you are lazy, and that God hates you! You did this to yourself!
The reality, of course is that rich early Americans were rich because they owned things: land, slaves, mills, etc. And early poor Americans were poor because they didn't own things and worked for greedy people that did own things. Or in the case of Black people, because they were owned.
But it's beyond race: in this dichotomy of deserving and undeserving, an Irish American sharecropper or slave overseer, was lazy, undeserving and seeking a handout, but an English American land owner was hard working.
Gangs of New York opening scene:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QqPqUcNKnVgIrish people and Catholics eventually "earned their whiteness" in the US, and adopted many of the Puritan ideals that were ones used against them.
What does this have to do with free childcare or free school? Or more accurately, public childcare or public school?
Well, in the United States, public schools are funded by local taxes of the community that the school is in. This creates a situation where the best schools are near the most expensive houses, not where the most students are, or where the best schools are needed.
This has a concentrating effect, where people buy expensive houses near good schools, which drives up the price of houses, which produces more money for the school district, which makes the schools better, which drives up the price of houses... ♾️
This is a free school in a rich part of the US:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm4dy25VmCwThis is a free school in a poor part of the US:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nD3P-utKYZ0A homeless Black woman wanted her child to go to school, so she had to list an address. She listed her child's babysitter's address. This qualified her child to go to a good school. But the school district found out about it. What do you think they did?
a) Let the child keep going to the school
b) Force the child to transfer to a school in a district with her homeless shelter
c) charge the mother with a felony, convict her, giving her a five year prison sentence, and causing her to lose custody of her child -
@mekkaokereke one of the core lessons of public health is that bureaucracy is _expensive_. The entire “Who should pay what!?” Exercise slows the systems down and costs a ton of money and basically all it produces is spreadsheets that cruel selfish people use to be cruel and selfish, and that crowd can’t wrap their heads around the fact that the other thing that’s great about public services being public services is that it’s cheaper.
all sorts of services. education, food programs, health, public transportation, postal services.
they are public goods. they don't need to "make a profit". any decently run program won't have enough fraud to make it worth charging money and tracking the use. what they will save in costs and result in overall improvement in quality of life for all will more than make them worth it.
problem is, as soon as you say anything like that (or universal health care, UBI, etc.) there are screams of "that's communism" (no it isn't) or "socialism" (not exactly). capitalism (which we don't really have either) is a sacred cow. no one dares to criticize capitalism.
sigh...
-
@mekkaokereke
When school lunch programs throw out the "who deserves to get free lunches?" and just provide for every child, the entire program is cheaper due to the lack of an enforcement layer, all children get fed, and children learn more and pay attention better.Being overly concerned that someone might get something they don't "deserve" usually ends up screwing over the ones who need help most.
We're supposed to "promote the general welfare" of the public - not gate-keep who gets help.
@realtegan @mekkaokereke this was how it was at all my schools elementary through high school; it sure helps with shame around needing help too. kids should never be made to feel bad about not having money.
-
@realtegan @mekkaokereke this was how it was at all my schools elementary through high school; it sure helps with shame around needing help too. kids should never be made to feel bad about not having money.
@bipolaron @mekkaokereke
I grew up in the 1970s, and if you were poor you brought a sack lunch or went hungry. Buying a lunch was a luxury. Then they offered free lunch for some kids, but the process to get it was nasty to go through, and as I recall there was a voucher the child had to use - visible to all other students so they knew the kid was getting a free lunch. The teasing was enough to make some kids go hungry, because children are cruel.When everyone gets it, it's so much better.
