I think #Signal seems to be a really good app.
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@leanderlindahl Large corporations will cooperate with all governments (including the US), and Signal cannot mathematically leak your data. Between today's reality and switching to Signal, I would choose Signal.
Yes, it would be good if there were a strong European alternative that would gain popularity, but I don't see such a ‘player’.
@Distante it becomes even more difficult for a strong player to emerge when we channel everyone into Signal. That's my point.
But when we bring this up the counter argument is always that Signal has good privacy and UX. That it's not big tech. I completely agree with the first two points.
It still does nothing what so ever to promote the emergence of one or more strong European alternatives, but the opposite.
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@leanderlindahl Large corporations will cooperate with all governments (including the US), and Signal cannot mathematically leak your data. Between today's reality and switching to Signal, I would choose Signal.
Yes, it would be good if there were a strong European alternative that would gain popularity, but I don't see such a ‘player’.
@Distante #DeltaChat, it is decentralized, doesn't require phone numbers or any private data, onboarding is smooth much easier than in signal, similar UI (it is a signal fork) it has much better multi-device and multi-profile support, secure in-chat mini-apps like notepads, to-do lists, shopping lists, etc
there are alternatives, but they will not gain momentum if you don't promote them and stop misinforming people selling a centralized silo running on amazon as #sovereign
@leanderlindahl -
@leanderlindahl Even worse: Signal has to use AWS for their world wide deployment as only those Hyperscalers are able to provide this kind of service around the world.
There are some big European players like OVH or Hetzner but none of them can provide data centers on every continent.
There’s simply no European solution at the moment.
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@Distante #DeltaChat, it is decentralized, doesn't require phone numbers or any private data, onboarding is smooth much easier than in signal, similar UI (it is a signal fork) it has much better multi-device and multi-profile support, secure in-chat mini-apps like notepads, to-do lists, shopping lists, etc
there are alternatives, but they will not gain momentum if you don't promote them and stop misinforming people selling a centralized silo running on amazon as #sovereign
@leanderlindahl -
I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl This is why I always recommend Matrix instead, and preferably some other instance than matrix.org so as to not centralize too much.
Alas, sometimes there really aren't any instances possible to join and then it's either the central one or setting up your own - and not everyone are in a position to do the latter.
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@leanderlindahl Large corporations will cooperate with all governments (including the US), and Signal cannot mathematically leak your data. Between today's reality and switching to Signal, I would choose Signal.
Yes, it would be good if there were a strong European alternative that would gain popularity, but I don't see such a ‘player’.
Signal can mathematically know who talks to whom, when, who sends images, what groups exist, because those are all direct connections from the app to the server. This means the US government has the possibility to know all of this. Signal is excellent but you have to do your homework and know your threat model: if US authorities are on the "malicious" part of it then Signal isn't a solution -
@leanderlindahl Even worse: Signal has to use AWS for their world wide deployment as only those Hyperscalers are able to provide this kind of service around the world.
There are some big European players like OVH or Hetzner but none of them can provide data centers on every continent.
There’s simply no European solution at the moment.
@kaibojens @leanderlindahl
Don't fall for the lies. Instant messaging doesn't need hyperscalers. Audio and video conferencing doesn't need hyperscalers, they need good network. Signal excusing itself with "we need hyperscalers" is just an excuse for centralizing all the communications. We don't need european hyperscalers because we don't need centralized communications. -
I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl also it demands a phone number (SIM card) to set up an account, which is the antithesis to be able to have undercover communication in upcoming fascism and surveillance states
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Signal can mathematically know who talks to whom, when, who sends images, what groups exist, because those are all direct connections from the app to the server. This means the US government has the possibility to know all of this. Signal is excellent but you have to do your homework and know your threat model: if US authorities are on the "malicious" part of it then Signal isn't a solution
@rakoo privacy != anonymity
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@rakoo privacy != anonymity
@Distante sentences >> words -
@leanderlindahl Large corporations will cooperate with all governments (including the US), and Signal cannot mathematically leak your data. Between today's reality and switching to Signal, I would choose Signal.
Yes, it would be good if there were a strong European alternative that would gain popularity, but I don't see such a ‘player’.
@Distante Aside from @delta you also have @matrix and @threemaapp
There is also @briar
Delta I like because it is decentralized and has a KISS approach.
https://blog.feld.me/posts/2025/03/deltachat-is-actually-good-though/
Thats not saying the others are bad. Threema is centralized which I personally would rather avoid. It means a SPOF
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I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl
Yes.
A good, secure and simple german alternative to WhatsApp and Signal is #deltachat
https://delta.chat/
They are in the fediverse too:
@delta -
@Distante sentences >> words
@rakoo Anonymity, privacy and security are different things
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@Distante Aside from @delta you also have @matrix and @threemaapp
There is also @briar
Delta I like because it is decentralized and has a KISS approach.
https://blog.feld.me/posts/2025/03/deltachat-is-actually-good-though/
Thats not saying the others are bad. Threema is centralized which I personally would rather avoid. It means a SPOF
@rraggl @delta @matrix @threemaapp @briar That's great. How many of your friends have you persuaded to pay for the app or learn about decentralisation?
No one is looking for anonymity. People want privacy at best
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@rakoo Anonymity, privacy and security are different things
@Distante yes, and in the context of the discussion when the US gov declares you as an enemy signal might provide security but not the others -
I think #Signal seems to be a really good app. Both from UX perspective and privacy (as far I've heard from others).
But it's still US software hq:ed in Mountain View California (with Alphabet, Google, LinkedIn), so switching to it does nothing (0) towards European digital independence. It doesn't help promote the emergence of strong European alternatives to US tech. It actually does the opposite when the European alternatives miss out on an influx of new users.
#digitalsovereignty #diday@leanderlindahl do you have any idea for a good alternative? I've been testing two:
Briar: https://briarproject.org/
and
Delta Chat: https://delta.chat/en/ -
@leanderlindahl do you have any idea for a good alternative? I've been testing two:
Briar: https://briarproject.org/
and
Delta Chat: https://delta.chat/en/@benjamim I hesitate to name alternatives because I'm not a security expert. But for messaging with friends and family there are a number of alternatives.
https://european-alternatives.eu/category/instant-messaging-appsThere seems be a consensus that #delta @delta offers the same level of security as Signal, but I'm sure someone will hit me in the head now with facts to the contrary.
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@benjamim I hesitate to name alternatives because I'm not a security expert. But for messaging with friends and family there are a number of alternatives.
https://european-alternatives.eu/category/instant-messaging-appsThere seems be a consensus that #delta @delta offers the same level of security as Signal, but I'm sure someone will hit me in the head now with facts to the contrary.
@leanderlindahl @delta "someone will hit me in the head"
ok ok thank you anyway 
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@benjamim I hesitate to name alternatives because I'm not a security expert. But for messaging with friends and family there are a number of alternatives.
https://european-alternatives.eu/category/instant-messaging-appsThere seems be a consensus that #delta @delta offers the same level of security as Signal, but I'm sure someone will hit me in the head now with facts to the contrary.
@leanderlindahl @benjamim @delta Signal has fancier encryption and I believe less metadata, but do you really want to trust them? Unless I'm missing something, Signal tries to store your keys on their server with a six digit PIN. I don't see why they can't just brute force that
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@leanderlindahl @benjamim @delta Signal has fancier encryption and I believe less metadata, but do you really want to trust them? Unless I'm missing something, Signal tries to store your keys on their server with a six digit PIN. I don't see why they can't just brute force that
@ben @leanderlindahl I'm trying to avoid American products as much as possible. Signal uses infrastructure from AWS, GCE and Azure.
This way I'm looking for a easy alternative (non-tech) to Signal. And @delta looks really good.
