Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet
failure to address this bit:
> the poll was misleading
@davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet yeah i would like to see some acknowledgement that the language was misleading.
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Let's ask the real question:
Firefox users,
do you want any AI directly built into Firefox, or separated out into extensions?
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante Am I a firefox user if I use a derivative like waterfox?
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@dahukanna @firefoxwebdevs this thread is not about an LLM, or AI-ML feature.
Translations are an accessibility feature, essential for many around the world, this should be a native feature, unless you don' t care about accessibility.
Hi @DiogoConstantino question was “Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand (machine learning, subset of artificial intelligence that automatically enables a machine or system to learn & improve from experience-https://cloud.google.com/learn/artificial-intelligence-vs-machine-learning) ML models for privacy-preserving translation.”
That’s what I responded to. I did not advocate to remove “Translations as an accessibility feature”. Rather to allow the user to select & consent to the feature with a specific implementation. -
Hi @DiogoConstantino question was “Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand (machine learning, subset of artificial intelligence that automatically enables a machine or system to learn & improve from experience-https://cloud.google.com/learn/artificial-intelligence-vs-machine-learning) ML models for privacy-preserving translation.”
That’s what I responded to. I did not advocate to remove “Translations as an accessibility feature”. Rather to allow the user to select & consent to the feature with a specific implementation.@dahukanna That's was not the question.
It's not about gathering data to train, or fine tune any model, or improving the model in any way. It's about using the model to make translations for languages that you authorize translations (automatically, or on-demand).
If you know the feature, you'll know that it's not used before the user authorizes it, and it can be controlled with some granularity.
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@dahukanna That's was not the question.
It's not about gathering data to train, or fine tune any model, or improving the model in any way. It's about using the model to make translations for languages that you authorize translations (automatically, or on-demand).
If you know the feature, you'll know that it's not used before the user authorizes it, and it can be controlled with some granularity.
@dahukanna I will not read whatever is on that link because it's hosted on Google.
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Let's ask the real question:
Firefox users,
do you want any AI directly built into Firefox, or separated out into extensions?
@duke_of_germany wrong question AI is a program have you ever ask should i put adobe in my firefox, the answer was yes a s a web page
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@dahukanna That's was not the question.
It's not about gathering data to train, or fine tune any model, or improving the model in any way. It's about using the model to make translations for languages that you authorize translations (automatically, or on-demand).
If you know the feature, you'll know that it's not used before the user authorizes it, and it can be controlled with some granularity.
@dahukanna I'm not saying there shouldn't be any further granularity, but the current feature has controls for:
* which language to translate from and to which, if any, should be translated at all;
* which website should be translated. -
@davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet yeah i would like to see some acknowledgement that the language was misleading.
@angelfeast it's not clear to me how the language was misleading. I clearly stated that the translation feature exists, and asked what should happen with it.
However, 'it should be disabled by the kill switch' is still the winner in the poll, so it seems like your view is well represented, no?
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Let's ask the real question:
Firefox users,
do you want any AI directly built into Firefox, or separated out into extensions?
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard @tante @rose_alibi I have stopped using Firefox because of their AI push.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs "Survey: What do you want to happen when you hit the opt-out button?" When nobody wants it to be opt out. Bad faith.
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@angelfeast it's not clear to me how the language was misleading. I clearly stated that the translation feature exists, and asked what should happen with it.
However, 'it should be disabled by the kill switch' is still the winner in the poll, so it seems like your view is well represented, no?
@firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard "trained on open data" what kind of open data? and why does this need to be in the browser in the first place instead of being an extension?
your last sentence feels condescending. "it should be disabled" is not the winner, "it should be disabled with the option of enabling" is the winner. why wasn't there an option for "make firefox's machine translation an extension instead"?
if you think i am misunderstanding, consider that i am a very average user of firefox who does not work in anything remotely resembling tech and if you feel like i don't understand something then that means either you are doing a shit job explaining or you are being stubborn and do not want to accept that even average users don't want this forced on them. or both.
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@jaffathecake @davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs it’s telling that you can’t admit that you deliberately misrepresented community consensus to push horseshit into the browser I use
@zzt @jaffathecake @davidgerard @firefoxwebdevs Fatality. Objective C... WINS
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@firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard "trained on open data" what kind of open data? and why does this need to be in the browser in the first place instead of being an extension?
your last sentence feels condescending. "it should be disabled" is not the winner, "it should be disabled with the option of enabling" is the winner. why wasn't there an option for "make firefox's machine translation an extension instead"?
if you think i am misunderstanding, consider that i am a very average user of firefox who does not work in anything remotely resembling tech and if you feel like i don't understand something then that means either you are doing a shit job explaining or you are being stubborn and do not want to accept that even average users don't want this forced on them. or both.
@angelfeast there are some things that aren't currently going to change: Translation exists in Firefox. There will be an AI kill switch. Removing the translation engine is not an option that will be implemented, so it didn't make sense to include.
I wasn't intending to be condescending. I think it's reasonable to combine both "it should be disabled" options - people who voted for either indicated that they want it to be disabled. Some want an option to enable it. Is that a fair interpretation?
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@angelfeast there are some things that aren't currently going to change: Translation exists in Firefox. There will be an AI kill switch. Removing the translation engine is not an option that will be implemented, so it didn't make sense to include.
I wasn't intending to be condescending. I think it's reasonable to combine both "it should be disabled" options - people who voted for either indicated that they want it to be disabled. Some want an option to enable it. Is that a fair interpretation?
@angelfeast it seems like the right course is to disable translation by default when the kill switch is used. Allowing a way to re-enable specific AI features (like translation) whilst otherwise maintaining the kill switch seems the best of the available options.
In terms of the training of translation data, the project is here https://github.com/mozilla/translations. If my use of 'open' was wrong, I'm sorry for that, but I don't think it impacts the results. Or would that change people's 'yes' to a 'no'?
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@sibrosan @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @davidgerard@circumstances.run @tante
It's spying on you. All Gen AI is an espionage attack surface for the technofascist state.
You might not notice that ICE and Trump's buddies can look at your web surfing whenever they want.
But you won't see it, so that's okay!
@crowgirl @duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs @tante
I would regard that as interference.
According to the Firefox CEO, AI functionality in the browser should be optional and it should be easy for the user to switch off.
If that is the case, I don't care if it's built in, or separated into extensions, or not included at all.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Please stop this. Please
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Let's ask the real question:
Firefox users,
do you want any AI directly built into Firefox, or separated out into extensions?
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs This is a so much better way to select options. In the survey above you have to read the question, understand the negation, stop, pause, think, process the different options, ...
The second one just asks what should be done (positive) and gives underatandable choices.
Please, let's all make surveys as easy as The Duke did.
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@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs This is a so much better way to select options. In the survey above you have to read the question, understand the negation, stop, pause, think, process the different options, ...
The second one just asks what should be done (positive) and gives underatandable choices.
Please, let's all make surveys as easy as The Duke did.
@duke_of_germany @firefoxwebdevs Oh, and please use clear choices with unambiguous answers. What does "
️" even mean in the first survey?- I don't know.
- I don't care.
- I lack sufficient deep knowledge about what AI actually is, though I do get the feeling that it's more than just LLMs, but how would I know? The privacy intrusions and energy sources both used to create LLMs in the first place do *really* bother me, especially in the shadows of Metallica v. Napster and the social inequity that is now used by companies like OpenAI. Also, I want to crawl to bed, eat pizza and pet my cat.
- Something else...So, dear Firefoxians, what does
️ mean in your survey? -
@rowmyboat assuming a kill switch is landing (which it is), do you disagree with the results of the poll?
@firefoxwebdevs I disagree with the premise.
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@firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard
Missing option, if shouldn't be in the browser code in the first place. It should be an add-on that the user has to explicitly install.
A suspect lot of people voted for the, "but allow it to re-enabled," option due to it being the least shitty choice presented. Not because that is the behavior they actually desire.
@nuintari @firefoxwebdevs @angelfeast @zzt @yoasif @fmasy @Rycochet @davidgerard THIS. Anyone who's ever written a poll or survey that's not *deliberately* a push poll knows that polls influence the beliefs of the people being polled, by choosing which options are presented vs hidden and by the exact wording of the question and options. It simply cannot be avoided, only minimized.
