So here’s the thing.
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PS for @protonprivacy, Are you listening? Your customers are bailing. Lose Andy Yen ASAP.
Currently I use:
Tuta and Murena for email
NextCloud for cloud and calendar
Privamatic and Tor VPN for hardening and VPN
NextCloud for PasswordsAs an FYI Murena actually uses NextCloud, which enable you to have all your documents, passwords, email, photos, calendar in one place and accessible via NextCloud apps and with a free tier available as well.
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@clacksee Their AI assistant (Euria) is opt-in and doesn't touch your data, so it's not the same model as what's happening at Proton. If you want something dead simple and cheap, Posteo is a German provider at €1/month — no personal data required at all.
@enki_2931
That’s the same as where Proton was a year ago, though. Just saying… -
@mikerspencer
Ooh, yikes. At least I have time to decide. If I were in your shoes, I’d switch to monthly renewal and tell @protonprivacy why your doing it and that you’ll move if they don’t lose the dead weight.@clacksee @mikerspencer
That’s a great call - my annual renewal is next month too.
So disappointed that @protonprivacy is putting AI obsession over security and quality engineering practices, not to mention unacceptable treatment of staff. -
@clacksee Get out. Now. Don't wait & see. Remember, OpenAI fired Sam Altman - fat lot of good that did. Just getting rid of Yen won't change the culture he represents & if it wasn't inherent, we wouldn't have to ask them; he'd have been fired long ago.
Changing such a culture is something a business has to prove & that's not going to happen before your next payment.
@jwcph
Spoken like someone with a whole lot of time on his hands. -
@noodle
Yeah, you raise an interesting point. I have two main email addresses. Both are currently Proton on the back end, but one is on my domain. The other is a proton-branded email. I think I might start using a personal domain so that when I have to switch in future, it’s less of a hassle. -
@clacksee
Good shout on monthly, I hadn't thought of that as an option.It's not going to be quick as I've a few addresses to migrate...
@protonprivacy@mikerspencer @protonprivacy
Yeah, same. I have two main email accounts but I’ve also got a gazillion aliases. I thought I was being so clever setting those up. But now they’re going to complicate moving. -
So here’s the thing. My entire life is on Proton: email, calendar, documents, VPN, all my passwords, all my ID, all my important data.
My annual subscription is up at the end of January.
If they don’t oust Andy Yen by then, I’m out. The question is where?
Infomaniak seems to offer most of what Proton does but they also use AI.
What other options are there? I’m seeing people suggesting email alternatives. But I need a whole lot more than that.
@clacksee@wandering.shop some reasonable imo recommendations:
- Mail + Files + Calendar: Fastmail
- Passwords: Bitwarden
- VPN: imo not really needed for 99% of cases but AirVPN -
@clacksee For passwords and 2FA, I've moved entirely to KeePass (KeePassXC on desktop, KeePassDX on mobile). It handles both passwords and TOTP codes, so I dropped Aegis. I run GrapheneOS on my phone, though it works just as well on stock Android. Vaults are synced locally between my PC and tablet — no cloud dependency. If I make changes while out, everything syncs back when I'm home. Fully local, fully in my control.
@enki_2931 @clacksee KeePass is slopped now. ChiPass is the trustworthy fork of KeePassXC.
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So here’s the thing. My entire life is on Proton: email, calendar, documents, VPN, all my passwords, all my ID, all my important data.
My annual subscription is up at the end of January.
If they don’t oust Andy Yen by then, I’m out. The question is where?
Infomaniak seems to offer most of what Proton does but they also use AI.
What other options are there? I’m seeing people suggesting email alternatives. But I need a whole lot more than that.
@clacksee A bundled/integrated system is *always* going to be like this. The whole point is making you feel like your whole life is on there so it's hard to move.
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@clacksee For the email + calendar side, Tuta (formerly Tutanota, German, open-source) is solid: end-to-end encrypted email, calendar, and contacts, all encrypted by default. If you want something broader with a drive too, Infomaniak kSuite is a Swiss alternative — email, calendar, drive, contacts, videoconferencing.
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So here’s the thing. My entire life is on Proton: email, calendar, documents, VPN, all my passwords, all my ID, all my important data.
My annual subscription is up at the end of January.
If they don’t oust Andy Yen by then, I’m out. The question is where?
Infomaniak seems to offer most of what Proton does but they also use AI.
What other options are there? I’m seeing people suggesting email alternatives. But I need a whole lot more than that.
@clacksee mailbox.org does everything on your list except VPN.
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So here’s the thing. My entire life is on Proton: email, calendar, documents, VPN, all my passwords, all my ID, all my important data.
My annual subscription is up at the end of January.
If they don’t oust Andy Yen by then, I’m out. The question is where?
Infomaniak seems to offer most of what Proton does but they also use AI.
What other options are there? I’m seeing people suggesting email alternatives. But I need a whole lot more than that.
@clacksee infomaniak is gone full ai too.
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@enki_2931 @clacksee KeePass is slopped now. ChiPass is the trustworthy fork of KeePassXC.
@dalias Thanks for the heads-up, I wasn’t aware of this. I’m on Debian 13 and I installed KeePassXC from Flathub (2.8.0), not the Debian package (2.7.10). I’ll check what changed between the two and then decide what to do.
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So here’s the thing. My entire life is on Proton: email, calendar, documents, VPN, all my passwords, all my ID, all my important data.
My annual subscription is up at the end of January.
If they don’t oust Andy Yen by then, I’m out. The question is where?
Infomaniak seems to offer most of what Proton does but they also use AI.
What other options are there? I’m seeing people suggesting email alternatives. But I need a whole lot more than that.
@clacksee They don't say don't put all of your eggs into one basket for no reason. Unfortunately, this will also mean more work and less integration between services.
Start with small stuff like password managers, since moving everything at once will be overwhelming.
Email -> Posteo (with Thunderbird)
VPN -> iVPN
Password manager -> Bitwarden or KeePassXCNot sure about the rest, but I found https://www.privacyguides.org/en/tools/ to be a great resource.
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So here’s the thing. My entire life is on Proton: email, calendar, documents, VPN, all my passwords, all my ID, all my important data.
My annual subscription is up at the end of January.
If they don’t oust Andy Yen by then, I’m out. The question is where?
Infomaniak seems to offer most of what Proton does but they also use AI.
What other options are there? I’m seeing people suggesting email alternatives. But I need a whole lot more than that.
@clacksee in case you haven't seen already. You can submit a cancellation (and reason) while you've got an active subscription and you'll retain your current status until your renewal date. Just cancelled mine (finishes in April) while I look for alternatives. Wanted to ensure they saw the cancellation and reason immediately.
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So here’s the thing. My entire life is on Proton: email, calendar, documents, VPN, all my passwords, all my ID, all my important data.
My annual subscription is up at the end of January.
If they don’t oust Andy Yen by then, I’m out. The question is where?
Infomaniak seems to offer most of what Proton does but they also use AI.
What other options are there? I’m seeing people suggesting email alternatives. But I need a whole lot more than that.
@clacksee I'm in the same boat, guess that what you get by having all your eggs in the same basket. From now on I'm gonna separate the services, it's a pain but at least next time something lie this happens I don't have to move everything at once.
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So here’s the thing. My entire life is on Proton: email, calendar, documents, VPN, all my passwords, all my ID, all my important data.
My annual subscription is up at the end of January.
If they don’t oust Andy Yen by then, I’m out. The question is where?
Infomaniak seems to offer most of what Proton does but they also use AI.
What other options are there? I’m seeing people suggesting email alternatives. But I need a whole lot more than that.
@clacksee A while ago I compiled a list of options for "de-Googling", annotated with what stuff they offer: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O3QsPC_oo3FzT267CrD9ozA7IsscsEqQfkDmzTI2emc/edit?usp=sharing Perhaps that is also useful for you?
Also really like AlternativeTo for this purpose.
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@globcoco True, Infomaniak does use AI, but in a completely different way from Proton: it’s optional, hosted only in Switzerland, and not used for training. If you’d rather avoid it altogether, Tuta has publicly stated that it won’t add cloud-based AI to its email client, and as far as I know the same goes for Tuta Drive. Posteo, as far as I know, doesn’t offer any AI features either. As for cloud storage, it depends on what you need.
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@globcoco I don’t use a cloud myself, as I run my own NAS at home, and even an older PC can do the job. If you’d rather use a service, Tuta Drive, Filen and Ente Photos (for photos only) are all end-to-end encrypted. Ente’s AI features run only on your device and are optional, and Filen, as far as I know, has none. Everyone’s needs are different, so it’s worth checking what suits yours.
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@globcoco True, Infomaniak does use AI, but in a completely different way from Proton: it’s optional, hosted only in Switzerland, and not used for training. If you’d rather avoid it altogether, Tuta has publicly stated that it won’t add cloud-based AI to its email client, and as far as I know the same goes for Tuta Drive. Posteo, as far as I know, doesn’t offer any AI features either. As for cloud storage, it depends on what you need.
Eurio is not opt out. It is very much present.
And does weird thing (like a blob appears and blocks everything)...
I have been with them for 10 years now.
