"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
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@FediThing @Kristian_Kiehling well, I guess by your logic there was nothing that could be done. Fascinating, the war was hence inevitable! How odd that you proclaim to be on the side of action when spreading the opposite.
@FediThing I guess my question is: where do I oppose the statements you've made? Whenever this discussion happens people just repeat the obvious back to me as if I disagree simply because I don't believe more weapons exports lead to peace (because they obviously don't).
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@Kristian_Kiehling The German government is in no war in Europe to date the victim. I'm capable of calling all warmongerers as such and don't shy away from pointing out the Russian invasion as obvious aggression, yet my analysis doesn't stop there. Unlike you, I want to understand aggressors and the conditions that lead to war in order to prevent it, instead of just repeating over and over again that they are aggressors, as if that's a universal rule.
@ErikUden Preventing war is a different and less complex issue than being attacked and told, to lay down weapons to let the aggressor take the country (not the people) @Kristian_Kiehling
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@ErikUden Preventing war is a different and less complex issue than being attacked and told, to lay down weapons to let the aggressor take the country (not the people) @Kristian_Kiehling
@Bugspriet @Kristian_Kiehling and where have I done or supported the latter?
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@goatchurch @Kristian_Kiehling Impressive how people can just ignore all facts and pretend Ukraine isn't constantly trying to negotiate an end. There was even the letter from Zelenskyy to Putin just a few months ago.
It would be good if more people realized that the US and the UK are the main cause for countries like Iran to reach for nukes now. Iran even brings up the Budapest memorandum themselves for doing so.
So, this is what trying to negotiate an end to the war looks like, does it?
"Observers suggested the letter had been written with Ukraine’s allies in mind and with the objective of needling Putin."
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"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
For the right: "Russia defends tradition." For the left: "NATO caused this." For the pacifist: "Weapons prolong war." For the cynic: "Everyone lies equally." For the tired: "It's complicated."
Five contradictory messages, one output: do nothing.
Russian propaganda doesn't need you to love Moscow. It needs you paralyzed."
Sulkhan Metreveli, CEO Met Capital | Director ACR Institute
@Kristian_Kiehling
Wow, du hast wirklich eine beachtliche Menge Blockempfehlungen angelockt.
Danke dafür, das spart Zeit und Mühe.
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"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
For the right: "Russia defends tradition." For the left: "NATO caused this." For the pacifist: "Weapons prolong war." For the cynic: "Everyone lies equally." For the tired: "It's complicated."
Five contradictory messages, one output: do nothing.
Russian propaganda doesn't need you to love Moscow. It needs you paralyzed."
Sulkhan Metreveli, CEO Met Capital | Director ACR Institute
@Kristian_Kiehling Alternatively you can get the truth about USA weakening Russia and Germany from George Friedman (Stratfor), all part of a plan, video from 2015:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeLu_yyz3tc&t=3230s -
@Kristian_Kiehling The German government is in no war in Europe to date the victim. I'm capable of calling all warmongerers as such and don't shy away from pointing out the Russian invasion as obvious aggression, yet my analysis doesn't stop there. Unlike you, I want to understand aggressors and the conditions that lead to war in order to prevent it, instead of just repeating over and over again that they are aggressors, as if that's a universal rule.
@ErikUden
You are either wilfully or unwittingly ignoring the facts. The russians have repeatedly sabotaged German state elections, the information space, and various civilian and military infrastructure.The russians indeed consider themselves to be at war with NATO, of which we are a member. As for the reasons behind russian aggression, one only needs to acknowledge russian imperialism, which did not start with the current leader and will not end with him, either.
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"How Russian propaganda works abroad, in one sentence per layer:
For the right: "Russia defends tradition." For the left: "NATO caused this." For the pacifist: "Weapons prolong war." For the cynic: "Everyone lies equally." For the tired: "It's complicated."
Five contradictory messages, one output: do nothing.
Russian propaganda doesn't need you to love Moscow. It needs you paralyzed."
Sulkhan Metreveli, CEO Met Capital | Director ACR Institute
@Kristian_Kiehling Time to block that @Canalbaobab "Automated" account where at the least they are just rude with replying in what seems to be French on an English language topic/post.
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@Kristian_Kiehling Time to block that @Canalbaobab "Automated" account where at the least they are just rude with replying in what seems to be French on an English language topic/post.
@Kristian_Kiehling @Canalbaobab@mastodon.social OK, seems the Mastodon app was improved in that you can't straight away block an account, but can straight away block a whole server instance.....
OK, reported the account, the I got the block option. -
@FediThing @Kristian_Kiehling well, I guess by your logic there was nothing that could be done. Fascinating, the war was hence inevitable! How odd that you proclaim to be on the side of action when spreading the opposite.
@ErikUden No. It wasn't inevitable.
Let's focus on the German contribution to this specific conflict. In 2005 Gerhard signed the NS1 deal. Angela didn't want to mess with a profitable deal, so after her veto in Bucharest Russia invaded Georgia.
That would have been a good time to start solving issues through diplomacy. But Germany didn't listen to Georgia, Ukraine or Baltic states, Poland and Czechia. Profits/savings from fossil fuels were more important.
@FediThing @Kristian_Kiehling -
@makdaam @Kristian_Kiehling we will all have to experience war unless we start understanding what lead to it, a position you seem to be very avoidant of.
@ErikUden Maybe puffed up truisms like above work on other politicians or in US style debate clubs. Also a veiled ad-personam in second answer already? Weak.
Knowing the root problem is the first step but not enough, next you have to figure out a solution and then action it. We're way ahead of you here so I'm asking you to stop westsplaining over generational lived experiences of people neighboring an empire and maybe to try to listen instead.
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So, this is what trying to negotiate an end to the war looks like, does it?
"Observers suggested the letter had been written with Ukraine’s allies in mind and with the objective of needling Putin."
@goatchurch @Kristian_Kiehling I suggest reading the actual letter and the various communications that took place before and after that.
A statement like "Observers suggested the letter had been written with Ukraine’s allies in mind and with the objective of needling Putin." is meaningless.
We simply have the fact that one country is continuously trying to negotiate while the other is not even considering this.
Any security guarrantuees that go beyond the Budapest memorandum, which would be essential to end renewed hostilities, as the US and UK showed that they won't intervene despite their signature, are being dismissed beforehand.Anybody suggesting to negotiate at this point is either promoting Russian propaganda or uninformed about what has already been put on paper before and been/being attempted with regards to negotiations up to now.
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@FediThing what is your opinion on Gaza? Why are we not arming the resistance fighters there (and why do you think the original commentator is part of a political party arming Israel)? Wouldn't the same logic apply there?
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@ErikUden No. It wasn't inevitable.
Let's focus on the German contribution to this specific conflict. In 2005 Gerhard signed the NS1 deal. Angela didn't want to mess with a profitable deal, so after her veto in Bucharest Russia invaded Georgia.
That would have been a good time to start solving issues through diplomacy. But Germany didn't listen to Georgia, Ukraine or Baltic states, Poland and Czechia. Profits/savings from fossil fuels were more important.
@FediThing @Kristian_Kiehling@makdaam @ErikUden @FediThing @Kristian_Kiehling there were so many opportunities to prevent this conflict, mainly by stopping giving money to a fascistic state with imperialistic wishes. first during the 2000s, then again during the 2010s, especially after the first invasion of Ukraine in 2014, then during the forces buildup of 2021, then right after the second invasion. instead the EU chose to give £1 billion a day for two more years, and it still gives Putin money, though slightly less.
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@ErikUden
You are either wilfully or unwittingly ignoring the facts. The russians have repeatedly sabotaged German state elections, the information space, and various civilian and military infrastructure.The russians indeed consider themselves to be at war with NATO, of which we are a member. As for the reasons behind russian aggression, one only needs to acknowledge russian imperialism, which did not start with the current leader and will not end with him, either. @Kristian_Kiehling @ErikUden
Nous les français fins de race et de coeur bref les gaullistes nous sommes sortis de l otan et c est un autre "young leader " ( comme Hollande qui a trahi la signature française lors des accords de Minsk 1&2) Sarkozy qui nous y a refouttu dans l otan
.Le général De Gaulle dont l écrasante majorité de la population allemande, peuple d erudits connaissent son magnifique discours à sa jeunesse le 9 /9/ 62...
Bref
Vive l Europe de brest à vladisvistok -
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