it's possible that one day Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance
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@androcat Microsoft has historically been extremely good at playing catchup to a clear target.
Dunno if they're still up to that task or they've been white-anted badly enough not to be.
@davidgerard Good point.
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@davidgerard
Took them long enough to admit that stock Windows 11 is noticeably worse than stock Win10.@moses_izumi gamers basically got the extra year of Win10 and will probably keep it past EOL
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it's possible that one day Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance
no really, Microsoft is literally using SteamOS as its benchmark and working hard to catch up to it in performance, this is not a drill
@davidgerard What is this crap about trying to regain trust? Ok, maybe they might try to win some benchmarks and, given how much software is optimized for Windows, they might even get benches to come out better for them, but trust isn't going to happen because they'll have to RADICALLY change what they're doing with... every single aspect of 11 — every single one — and really just everything they're doing all around and they'd rather go out of business than do that... (Also, even if they suddenly changed on a whim, who would ever trust them? I sure as heck wouldn't...)
If they're using SteamOS as their benchmark though, that's amazing. It's pretty much a straight up admission that Linux is there, lol.
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it's possible that one day Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance
no really, Microsoft is literally using SteamOS as its benchmark and working hard to catch up to it in performance, this is not a drill
@davidgerard
I like they're calling it K2 - they've seen the highest peak they can aspire to, and are frantically climbing the wrong mountain - one that's not as high and kills a higher percentage of people climbing it. -
it's possible that one day Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance
no really, Microsoft is literally using SteamOS as its benchmark and working hard to catch up to it in performance, this is not a drill
@davidgerard
Microsoft don't realise how bad their experience truely is when compared to linux. They need to ship with drivers built in and decent software options from the get go, and they can't and won't.
I can rebuild my daily runner from bare drives and a usb key in under an hour. Never ever have i been able to do that with Windows. -
it's possible that one day Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance
no really, Microsoft is literally using SteamOS as its benchmark and working hard to catch up to it in performance, this is not a drill
@davidgerard No it’s okay I’m good with Linux now. Microsoft, you can stop trying.
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it's possible that one day Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance
no really, Microsoft is literally using SteamOS as its benchmark and working hard to catch up to it in performance, this is not a drill
@davidgerard I'm sure Gaming Copilot will help with this
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@androcat Microsoft has historically been extremely good at playing catchup to a clear target.
Dunno if they're still up to that task or they've been white-anted badly enough not to be.
@davidgerard @androcat A demoralized and diminished workforce after all the layoffs probably isn't going to get them there... -
it's possible that one day Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance
no really, Microsoft is literally using SteamOS as its benchmark and working hard to catch up to it in performance, this is not a drill
Windows Exec: "Ok guys, whatever you need, we're gonna make this right and win users trust back. What are the pain points for people with Win 11?"
K2 Devs: "It looks like from our data people mainly don't like AI and how their OS spies on them, so we've drafted a proposal to remove those features."
Windows Exec: "Wellp, we tried, looks like there's nothing we can do but shut down the K2 initiative. A real shame, real shame."
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it's possible that one day Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance
no really, Microsoft is literally using SteamOS as its benchmark and working hard to catch up to it in performance, this is not a drill
@davidgerard trust: once it's gone, it's gone
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@davidgerard No it’s okay I’m good with Linux now. Microsoft, you can stop trying.
@woltiv @davidgerard I switched the ol' desktop from 2010 and "TV laptop" from 2015 from Win10 to #Q4OS last year, and noticed that Lord of the Rings Online (a Windows game) runs *better* on those than it did in Windows.
For normal use (Vivaldi, VLC, torrenting, file and media server, etc.) things are far better than they were in Windows...
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it's possible that one day Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance
no really, Microsoft is literally using SteamOS as its benchmark and working hard to catch up to it in performance, this is not a drill
Every time I talked to the Windows team, I was told that backwards compatibility was the reason that they couldn't do refactorings to improve security / performance / programmer model.
Then I'd go home and run old Windows apps on my Mac under WINE that failed to start under Windows 10.
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it's possible that one day Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance
no really, Microsoft is literally using SteamOS as its benchmark and working hard to catch up to it in performance, this is not a drill
@davidgerard It would be highly funny to me if enough companies decided to optimize their games to work with the SteamDeck/SteamOS, MS would be forced to maintain compatibility with WINE instead of the other way around
And on that day, I would laugh my ass off
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Every time I talked to the Windows team, I was told that backwards compatibility was the reason that they couldn't do refactorings to improve security / performance / programmer model.
Then I'd go home and run old Windows apps on my Mac under WINE that failed to start under Windows 10.
@david_chisnall @davidgerard backwards compatibility is very much a sacred cow when it comes to Windows. There are huge customers that can move the revenue needle, who still need OLE32. There are thousands of applications that are still in use that need OLE32.
And they've always essentially promised that things will always be backwards compatible. If it worked on Windows 3.11, then it will basically keep working, forever. Which is no small feat to begin with.
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@davidgerard
Microsoft don't realise how bad their experience truely is when compared to linux. They need to ship with drivers built in and decent software options from the get go, and they can't and won't.
I can rebuild my daily runner from bare drives and a usb key in under an hour. Never ever have i been able to do that with Windows.@bloognoo @davidgerard In the last few years, they managed to make Calculator, Notepad, and the Taskbar feel unreliable and janky. I don't think they know what 'quality' is, so it's hard to imagine that they can achieve it.
IMO, Windows is long overdue for a deep refactor. Keep the kernel, but break-up the various runtimes for different eras of the OS into immutable and separated blobs, and then run apps on those. I don't mind waiting a few seconds for legacy apps to fire-up a legacy runtime if it means my system won't consume 11GB RAM just to get to a desktop.
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@david_chisnall @davidgerard backwards compatibility is very much a sacred cow when it comes to Windows. There are huge customers that can move the revenue needle, who still need OLE32. There are thousands of applications that are still in use that need OLE32.
And they've always essentially promised that things will always be backwards compatible. If it worked on Windows 3.11, then it will basically keep working, forever. Which is no small feat to begin with.
@rootwyrm @david_chisnall @davidgerard Win 3 (16-bit) applications don't work on Win 11 anyway. For all the rest of legacy applications (from Win 2000 to Win 10) they can always ask Copilot to vibe code something like WINE for them, assuming it's not busy converting all C++ code to Rust.
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@rootwyrm @david_chisnall @davidgerard Win 3 (16-bit) applications don't work on Win 11 anyway. For all the rest of legacy applications (from Win 2000 to Win 10) they can always ask Copilot to vibe code something like WINE for them, assuming it's not busy converting all C++ code to Rust.
@dukeboitans @david_chisnall @davidgerard oh, no, that's just flat out wrong. The old 16-bit stuff still works more or less perfectly with the compatibility shims. That's what NTVDM is for. It's why OTVDM is a thing and works even though it's "obsolete" technology.
It's impressive and terrifying at the same time. Especially when you consider that in theory, you can in-place upgrade from Windows 3.11 all the way to 11.
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it's possible that one day Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance
no really, Microsoft is literally using SteamOS as its benchmark and working hard to catch up to it in performance, this is not a drill
@davidgerard It's actually funnier than that: it isn't 'Windows might catch up to Linux in gaming performance', it's 'Windows might catch up to Linux *running Windows games, pretending to be Windows* in gaming performance'.
It says a lot when emulating something is quicker than running the thing natively.
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@dukeboitans @david_chisnall @davidgerard oh, no, that's just flat out wrong. The old 16-bit stuff still works more or less perfectly with the compatibility shims. That's what NTVDM is for. It's why OTVDM is a thing and works even though it's "obsolete" technology.
It's impressive and terrifying at the same time. Especially when you consider that in theory, you can in-place upgrade from Windows 3.11 all the way to 11.
@rootwyrm @david_chisnall @davidgerard idk, at microsoft they don't seem to know this, you tell them. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-client/application-management/x64-windows-not-support-16-bit-programs
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@rootwyrm @david_chisnall @davidgerard idk, at microsoft they don't seem to know this, you tell them. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-client/application-management/x64-windows-not-support-16-bit-programs
@dukeboitans @david_chisnall @davidgerard that's the official policy; nothing that old is "officially" supported. But like all things with Microsoft, enough money changes it.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/compatibility/ntvdm-and-16-bit-app-support
