In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic.
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Our tech overlords believe that's OK. Maybe it is. I like calculators, I like maps. But I worry every day about what LLMs are doing to people's brains.
It's why I won't touch the damn things. I like my ability to think.
@robpike at one point I realized that to be a successful businessman it was most probably an advantage if you could do arithmetic in your head, and that changed a bit my perspective on calculators
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Our tech overlords believe that's OK. Maybe it is. I like calculators, I like maps. But I worry every day about what LLMs are doing to people's brains.
It's why I won't touch the damn things. I like my ability to think.
@robpike The test for me is whether it helps me understand something or substitutes for me understanding something. LLMs, at least as currently implemented, seem overwhelmingly to be aiming for the latter.
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@robpike i wish that i could be one hundredth as productive as you without LLMs, I wonder if maybe your experience as a top .01% programmer changes your perspective here
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@robpike at one point I realized that to be a successful businessman it was most probably an advantage if you could do arithmetic in your head, and that changed a bit my perspective on calculators
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Our tech overlords believe that's OK. Maybe it is. I like calculators, I like maps. But I worry every day about what LLMs are doing to people's brains.
It's why I won't touch the damn things. I like my ability to think.
@robpike calculators and maps took over specific activities. AI is taking over thinking, we're giving up the ability to make our own every day decisions.
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@robpike i wish that i could be one hundredth as productive as you without LLMs, I wonder if maybe your experience as a top .01% programmer changes your perspective here
@llimllib
> changes your perspectiveThis debraining thing is making brilliant programmers mediocre, and average Joes dumb. The conditionals mishap (think backdoor) they would spot as you typed it some 30 months ago now can pass through in their own production. The ability to do real architectural work vanishes a bit slower, but it is noticeable. And debraining current generation of programmers is not the worst thing around artificial idiocy, the chop on junior's ability to _learn_ is the most terrifying effect I saw. It looks like now it physically pains them if you ask 'why' or 'how'.
How can we pass the craft to our younglings exposed to this drug if they conditioned themselves to be reverse centaurs?
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike @ChrisMayLA6 @dabeaz
Might as well go all the way and outlaw clean public water, electricity, public waste water, and health and dental care so we can get back to surviving like escaped domestic pets. -
Our tech overlords believe that's OK. Maybe it is. I like calculators, I like maps. But I worry every day about what LLMs are doing to people's brains.
It's why I won't touch the damn things. I like my ability to think.
@robpike Have you programmed with them before? Or are you concerned that once you tried them, you wouldn't be able to stop?
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike Years ago, someone no doubt being paid shit wages accidently short-changed me at a store register. They tried to stand behind their wrong math, not thinking a guy with long hair and old clothes like me could add and subtract 4 places with the decimal after the first two in my head. My calculation stood however. The line was building up and I suggested counting the money in the register and that was that.
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@robpike @dabeaz I'm already seeing it: people who can (it seems) no longer bring themselves to do work without it, even though I know they're capable because I saw them do so mere months ago.
It's not only a loss of skill, though surely that will come in time, it's also a loss of will and motivation to engage with a problem.
It's pretty bad in universities too. Lots of students using them, cheesing their grades with minimal brainpower.
I don't, because I love solving problems (why let a machine have all the fun), but its frustrating to see people being so short sighted. Has nobody read Dune in the past 20 years?Basking in the sheer wave of panic that floods the library when people lose access to their chatbots all at once (thanks, cloudflare), is, admittedly, incredibly funny.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
so what if we can't do mental arithmetic
who cares
we have calculators that cost like a buck
I can use my brain for other thingsas for that "polish study" I bet if you carefully read it, and understood what you read, that the study would not be very pursuasive
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike I've been leaving Google Maps off my phone and using stuff like CoMaps, which forces you to actually know how to navigate/know what you're looking for. Even for me, as someone totally inept at spatial skills and direction, it has helped me intuit navigation just a bit better.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@@robpike.io tbf there isn't really an alternative to digital navigation now. We used to buy maps and go off those. There were more areas where people could easily pull over and look, as well. Now both of those things are a relic. -
RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike calculators didnt kill my math ability- it never existed. i have dyscalculia. i have to shut my eyes to focus to do simple arithmetic in my head because the numerical shapes are so similar they become malleable in my minds' eye ...
i guess the argument here is what is accessibility to some is an excuse to not try to others. but i fail to see gen ai as an aid for ANYONE. except ceos n sex pests who need gassing up, and they do not need access tools. that is not equitable.
however a society sick on the late stages of capitalism doesnt care abt any of that. it just wants you as easily influenced, frightened, lonely and confused as it wants you to give up your money. the worse a consumer feels and the more helpless, the more you can spin the tale that buying a new product will fix them....
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike I remember trying to write in assembly language.
Load A
Load B
Mul A,B
Stor
Mov -
RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
Early adopter syndrome. Thankfully, I got over that years ago. We don't have regulations to help us understand what's a safe technology, so people are treating LLMs like a shovel. Just like they have been with apps on their phone, with fine print, and with just about any consumer product.
It's not that we're suddenly stupid. It's that we've been sold a bill of goods, and never read the fine print. Most of us are unable to resist a charming huckster.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike however, the use of pocket calculators also declined. I do not have on my desk, seldom start the application. I short, I think this is a side effect of it being a novelty. Use will likely decline, but it won't go away... But before it does, many will suffer from being deskilled.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike I would also add that while calculators (or abacuses, or whatever) can be used as an argument in favor of LLMs, Google Maps is a great argument against them.
Inability to orient yourself without a faulty device is a major hindrance and could kill you. Your brain loses that ability not because Google Maps are always correct, but because you stoped using it.
LLMs don’t need to produce correct output for you to lose skills, they just have to stop you from exercising said skills.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
I doubt this #LLM damage to cognitive function will make much difference to outcomes, @robpike.
The crucial deficiency in humans has never been thinking skills. It has always been lack of empathy. Or, more harshly, presence of #sociopathy.
The planet is on fire. This was widely foreseen for many decades, but solid science was useless because human sociopaths opposed the fixes when we had time.
Same with war. Any damn fool can see that piling up weapons is disastrous. But humans stll do it.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike Related to
maps, one game I played this summer on a road trip was the "no maps, no interstate" game. Starting in Chicago, the goal was to drive to Denver under those rules. I did pretty well until someone here suggested I go see the world's largest ball of twine--at which point I had to consult a map to see where THAT was relative to current location. But overall, still a fun exercise.
