In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic.
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Our tech overlords believe that's OK. Maybe it is. I like calculators, I like maps. But I worry every day about what LLMs are doing to people's brains.
It's why I won't touch the damn things. I like my ability to think.
@robpike Have you programmed with them before? Or are you concerned that once you tried them, you wouldn't be able to stop?
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike Years ago, someone no doubt being paid shit wages accidently short-changed me at a store register. They tried to stand behind their wrong math, not thinking a guy with long hair and old clothes like me could add and subtract 4 places with the decimal after the first two in my head. My calculation stood however. The line was building up and I suggested counting the money in the register and that was that.
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@robpike @dabeaz I'm already seeing it: people who can (it seems) no longer bring themselves to do work without it, even though I know they're capable because I saw them do so mere months ago.
It's not only a loss of skill, though surely that will come in time, it's also a loss of will and motivation to engage with a problem.
It's pretty bad in universities too. Lots of students using them, cheesing their grades with minimal brainpower.
I don't, because I love solving problems (why let a machine have all the fun), but its frustrating to see people being so short sighted. Has nobody read Dune in the past 20 years?Basking in the sheer wave of panic that floods the library when people lose access to their chatbots all at once (thanks, cloudflare), is, admittedly, incredibly funny.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
so what if we can't do mental arithmetic
who cares
we have calculators that cost like a buck
I can use my brain for other thingsas for that "polish study" I bet if you carefully read it, and understood what you read, that the study would not be very pursuasive
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike I've been leaving Google Maps off my phone and using stuff like CoMaps, which forces you to actually know how to navigate/know what you're looking for. Even for me, as someone totally inept at spatial skills and direction, it has helped me intuit navigation just a bit better.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@@robpike.io tbf there isn't really an alternative to digital navigation now. We used to buy maps and go off those. There were more areas where people could easily pull over and look, as well. Now both of those things are a relic. -
RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike calculators didnt kill my math ability- it never existed. i have dyscalculia. i have to shut my eyes to focus to do simple arithmetic in my head because the numerical shapes are so similar they become malleable in my minds' eye ...
i guess the argument here is what is accessibility to some is an excuse to not try to others. but i fail to see gen ai as an aid for ANYONE. except ceos n sex pests who need gassing up, and they do not need access tools. that is not equitable.
however a society sick on the late stages of capitalism doesnt care abt any of that. it just wants you as easily influenced, frightened, lonely and confused as it wants you to give up your money. the worse a consumer feels and the more helpless, the more you can spin the tale that buying a new product will fix them....
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike I remember trying to write in assembly language.
Load A
Load B
Mul A,B
Stor
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
Early adopter syndrome. Thankfully, I got over that years ago. We don't have regulations to help us understand what's a safe technology, so people are treating LLMs like a shovel. Just like they have been with apps on their phone, with fine print, and with just about any consumer product.
It's not that we're suddenly stupid. It's that we've been sold a bill of goods, and never read the fine print. Most of us are unable to resist a charming huckster.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike however, the use of pocket calculators also declined. I do not have on my desk, seldom start the application. I short, I think this is a side effect of it being a novelty. Use will likely decline, but it won't go away... But before it does, many will suffer from being deskilled.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike I would also add that while calculators (or abacuses, or whatever) can be used as an argument in favor of LLMs, Google Maps is a great argument against them.
Inability to orient yourself without a faulty device is a major hindrance and could kill you. Your brain loses that ability not because Google Maps are always correct, but because you stoped using it.
LLMs don’t need to produce correct output for you to lose skills, they just have to stop you from exercising said skills.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
I doubt this #LLM damage to cognitive function will make much difference to outcomes, @robpike.
The crucial deficiency in humans has never been thinking skills. It has always been lack of empathy. Or, more harshly, presence of #sociopathy.
The planet is on fire. This was widely foreseen for many decades, but solid science was useless because human sociopaths opposed the fixes when we had time.
Same with war. Any damn fool can see that piling up weapons is disastrous. But humans stll do it.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike Related to
maps, one game I played this summer on a road trip was the "no maps, no interstate" game. Starting in Chicago, the goal was to drive to Denver under those rules. I did pretty well until someone here suggested I go see the world's largest ball of twine--at which point I had to consult a map to see where THAT was relative to current location. But overall, still a fun exercise. -
@robpike It's the intersection of liking my ability to think and utter disgust for grifting bullshit spewers.
Incidentally I have also stopped setting GPS destinations for anything not time critical or very long distance.
@MongooseStudios @robpike I sometimes set GPS destinations for places where I already know the route, to see what quality the directions are anyway. Bicycle directions, at least one company does not know about a months-long closed bike path. And sometimes it does weird squirrelly "shortcut" shit through neighborhoods not really intended for through auto traffic.
We've done some silicon vs carbon bakeoffs for debugging, same idea.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike How many people can actually make change anymore, when the power goes out?
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
The advance of automobiles contributed to people's lack of stamina
The petro agriculture means one person can make 300 live through the winter
You wanna go back to the sharp stick?
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
I couldn't navigate without an Atlas, then printed out MapQuest directions, then not without my lord and savior Garmin and finally with some app on my phone. I don't get lost anymore.
I still try to do math in my head for fun sometimes or do long division or fractions by hand because I don't want to forget.
LLMs are a choice. It's a choice being forced and being lied about and being used to manipulate people. I think, if we can get people away from them, the skills can be retaught. But people have to see what's happening to them and choose to turn away. I have no idea how long that will take or how difficult it will become.
It's easier for some to be seduced by the lies. Maybe it's a time crunch. Maybe they hate their job but can't just stop. Maybe they are just curious. Maybe their boss makes them. They are designed to be addictive. They are addictive.
The dumbing down, the addiction, the rent seeking are all on purpose. We have to see it. We have to believe it. We have to push back.
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@beamanuel I been doing this every day for more than 20 years now, not sure what you expect me to do here
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@dabeaz/117259349418891202
In the early 1970s, most folks could do some mental arithmetic. They had to. The arrival of pocket calculators quickly reduced most people's ability to do "math" in their heads.
Ditto with Google Maps: people can't navigate without it. A recent study of Polish radiologists using LLMs to assist showed a measurable drop in the doctor's own ability to diagnose without them
LLMs will have that effect on programmers' ability to code.
More broadly: for people to be able to think for themselves.
@robpike I graduated from high school before I got my hands on a computer. That happened in college, but I was still using a card catalog to look things up in the library.
A few years later, people started talking about digital natives and how that might be superior to people who had fears and phobias about technology.
In this moment now, I'm thinking that was wrong, it was actually a strength to learn to do it all the slow way first. That might even include learning PDP-11 assembly language.
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@robpike I graduated from high school before I got my hands on a computer. That happened in college, but I was still using a card catalog to look things up in the library.
A few years later, people started talking about digital natives and how that might be superior to people who had fears and phobias about technology.
In this moment now, I'm thinking that was wrong, it was actually a strength to learn to do it all the slow way first. That might even include learning PDP-11 assembly language.
@robpike But I think if you do fully understand the old slow ways you can use faster ones later. You might even use them more carefully and effectively than the new natives.
Some school districts are moving to ban AI until high school. That may not be a bad idea for reasons above.
But certainly by college we are supposed to be equipped to understand and judge ideas in the abstract.
