Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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@scottjenson we didn't even mention "AI"
the thing you're quoting was about "tech news". we put that phrase in quotes to call attention to the fact we were directly quoting it. our apologies if that was less clear than we hoped.
@scottjenson you've clearly bucketed us into some specific category before even talking to us, but, like... whatever cliche you're imagining, we're not that.
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@scottjenson you've clearly bucketed us into some specific category before even talking to us, but, like... whatever cliche you're imagining, we're not that.
@scottjenson our point was that journalists have specific goals in their engagement with social venues, and the nature of those goals shapes the reactions they get and that can't be separated from the way journalists view those places.
it's a really super-specific use-case that the person you're quoting talks about, so we responded to that, because it didn't even occur to us you were trying to generalize it to a statement about everybody
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@scottjenson our point was that journalists have specific goals in their engagement with social venues, and the nature of those goals shapes the reactions they get and that can't be separated from the way journalists view those places.
it's a really super-specific use-case that the person you're quoting talks about, so we responded to that, because it didn't even occur to us you were trying to generalize it to a statement about everybody
@scottjenson for the record, we think such generalization is facially absurd
we'd normally have found some polite way to say that, but it turns out reacting as if we're someone else is a fast way to get us angry
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@evan @scottjenson @MozillaAI Mastodon as a community is quite hostile to AI and anything that isn’t a criticism of AI is viewed with skepticism at best and typically with hostility as the default.
It’s unfortunate because, as in your Mozilla example, there is still time to shape how AI is used in our industry. It’s better to engage and try to influence it versus stick your head in the sand and have the change thrusted upon you.
@carnage4life @evan @scottjenson @MozillaAI I thought this was a very astute way to put it.
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@awfulwoman Two very separate points:
1. Do you (or even many others) want journalists here? The is a very personal choice and you can want (or not want) anything you wish. That isn't really what's on the table.
2. Should Journalists be allowed to be here? I think you know where I stand on this. It's a subtle point (one which I was just reminded maybe shouldn't be discussed in Post form) But I do believe that encouraging a wider range of voices is critical to our success in building out a robust social media landscape. We can't gatekeep and only let in "the right folks" that of course is impossible as that definition varies for every person here.@scottjenson let’s rephrase it then: I’m highly indifferent to journalists being on here. And that’s very different from “let’s change the culture of the fediverse to encourage them to join”.
And don’t get me wrong, the culture on here can be fucking annoying - I swear I will launch through the screen at the next humourless “yes, but” German furry response to one of my posts.
But if the nature of the fediverse isn’t inimical to journalism then is that something to change, or accept as a fact?
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@scottjenson for the record, we think such generalization is facially absurd
we'd normally have found some polite way to say that, but it turns out reacting as if we're someone else is a fast way to get us angry
@scottjenson we have a great deal of respect for your work and didn't mean to get quite that upset. for the record.
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@scottjenson let’s rephrase it then: I’m highly indifferent to journalists being on here. And that’s very different from “let’s change the culture of the fediverse to encourage them to join”.
And don’t get me wrong, the culture on here can be fucking annoying - I swear I will launch through the screen at the next humourless “yes, but” German furry response to one of my posts.
But if the nature of the fediverse isn’t inimical to journalism then is that something to change, or accept as a fact?
@scottjenson I certainly don’t miss people boosting their work for clicks or career advancement. And again, that isn’t the same as “professional journalists are unwelcome”. I just won’t engage with that. But will I engage with some producing interesting work that matches my interests? Certainly.
That I (and I suspect, others) don’t automatically see those as being the same thing is probably the issue.
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@EveHasWords what does that matter?
@scottjenson If “AI journalist” in this context means that a legitimate, actual journalist doing real journalism about LLM companies and developers has been chased off the Fediverse, it would matter a great deal. If it’s AI boosters and regurgitators of startup press releases and marketing done under the flag of access journalism, I’m much less concerned.
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@scottjenson I certainly don’t miss people boosting their work for clicks or career advancement. And again, that isn’t the same as “professional journalists are unwelcome”. I just won’t engage with that. But will I engage with some producing interesting work that matches my interests? Certainly.
That I (and I suspect, others) don’t automatically see those as being the same thing is probably the issue.
@scottjenson I think the typical Mastodon user certainly does have severe problem with how they interact with others. That’s a function of the personality/brain type that gets attracted here. I’m certainly not a fan of that, and yes it creates a monoculture of interaction style- but I will infinitely take it over the Big Tent “let’s all homogeneously scream in public” paradigm of Twitter where there was a monoculture of *content* style.
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@scottjenson I think the typical Mastodon user certainly does have severe problem with how they interact with others. That’s a function of the personality/brain type that gets attracted here. I’m certainly not a fan of that, and yes it creates a monoculture of interaction style- but I will infinitely take it over the Big Tent “let’s all homogeneously scream in public” paradigm of Twitter where there was a monoculture of *content* style.
@awfulwoman But my point wasn't *specifically* about journalists, it was just an example of one person that a) wasn't getting traction and b) the 1% of the deplorables wanted to chase them away.
My point way much more broad, about using this as a wedge example of allowing a much wider array of people into Mastodon. Just because you don't like self promoting morons (I don't either of course) doesn't mean we should be actively chasing them away. Not because I want them! But for a much simpler reason: It's very hard to objectively define what a "promoting moron" is. More importantly, they might do it AND be a really valuable person to the community.
There is so much simplistic black and white thinking about who someone is and so many are willing to say "Begone!" for the flimsiest of reasons.
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson This is what happens when the culture tries to come here but they were policed and bullied off the platform.
Black folks would rather go through another centralized network than deal with the toxic nature of the Fediverse.
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson “As this conversation is spiraling a bit let me double down on my worst possible take: AI journos are marginalized exactly the same as BIPOC, trans, and queer folk.”
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@scottjenson @evan @cratermoon
For my instance, for my feed, AI boosters bring nothing of value.
They own the government, mainstream media, and the stock market.
It's just a strange group to call out as needing a signal boost.
@eestileib @scottjenson @evan To drill down on the "what value?" question, we can refine it to ask, "who benefits, who is harmed, and what recourse do those who are harmed have?"
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@evan @cratermoon Exactly, even asking that question "What value do they bring" is kind of scary.
It's a fine line, I get it. We draw the line at nazis and scammers but let's not cross the line into "intellectual purity" tests
@scottjenson @evan what if the question is "who benefits, who is harmed, and what recourse is there for those harmed?"
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@scottjenson @evan what if the question is "who benefits, who is harmed, and what recourse is there for those harmed?"
@cratermoon @evan should everyone who joins mastodon be forced to pass that gauntlet? Who are the gate keepers? There shouldn't be a purity test. Catch the scammers of course, but passing judgement on the quality of someone's thoughts is very dubious
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson actually, Mastodon in Brazil has been getting less tech-centric as it grows. But I do believe that the people who come to the platform, and stay here, are willing to trade less engagement for more real engagement, and that is not enough to sway big influencers (and by that I include popular authors, journalists, etc.), that truly require the algorithm to get big follower numbers. It's just a different logic. I think something might change if more outlets open an account here and they think of their instance as a kind of Verification mark. Like an "AndersonCooper@cnn.social", for instance.
@carnage4life -
@scottjenson “As this conversation is spiraling a bit let me double down on my worst possible take: AI journos are marginalized exactly the same as BIPOC, trans, and queer folk.”
@devlord don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I'm asking for more inclusivity. I assume you don't think that is horrible do you?
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson When I see discussions about numbers here, I always think about the admins and mods. Are they being empowered with the proper tools to manage that kind of growth? Many instances go invite only because Nazis and transphobes are very good at what they do and they will twist and turn any code, rule or measure to let themselves in. Keeping this at bay requires work that in many occasions is underappreciated and unpaid. Are the right tools at their disposal at the present time?
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@scottjenson I may have miss understood the initial post, I'm not suggesting the journalists shouldn't post, just that I think their engagement measurement may not be the right metric (but it is the one they are used to)
@ben @scottjenson So, a little context from a former journalist: I asked my boss if I could start and manage a mastodon account for my publication, and she advised that we would have to conduct a study to justify the use of my time - a company asset - by measuring traffic that mastodon drove to our site. Because this is a respectful space, there was no real way to track clicks, so I couldn't justify it and I ended up deleting the account I had already started. It's often not a matter of the journalist's lack of imagination or excess of ego, but their need to meet metrics.
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@devlord don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I'm asking for more inclusivity. I assume you don't think that is horrible do you?
@scottjenson it’s kind of what you said. Read what you said again if you don’t believe me. Black Twitter didn’t succeed on Mastodon not due to “gatekeeping”. But a failure of gatekeeping, at keeping the baddies out. E.g. racists or those not sensitive enough to recognize their racism.
