Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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@scottjenson @Gargron The evac of Black Mastodon is a very complex and nuanced topic that was mostly fuelled by coordinated active racist harassment campaigns.
But let’s not at all try to equate what happened there with what is a general disinterest / distain / hostility for what was a computer science topic turned sociopolitical.
They are not the same.
@octothorpe i agree they are not exactly the same. But "inclusivity" is *always* a complicated topic and never an easy one to solve. Mastodon has always tried to be a safe haven for marginalized people (although it has been a bumpy road and could be better!)
My point is that many of the replies to my post were basically "AI bad, they shouldn't be here" and while I respect anyone's right to think that, it's something else to say we should actively chase them away. They are not nazis and they are not scammers (well, most of them aren't)
I'm just saying the kicking people out for their ideas is a slippery slope and one which we should discuss more and be very careful with.
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@scottjenson @carnage4life on the topic of AI, I find the abusive conversations on the Fediverse pretty dispiriting. People I like and respect have worked themselves into the position that use of AI is an inexcusable sin, and that anyone who uses AI merits harassment and abuse. Given that 85% of developers use or plan to use AI (Stack Overflow poll), that means a huge number of tech people getting brigaded by our anti-AI squad.
@evan @panos @scottjenson @carnage4life Two things can be true at the same time:
- Using LLMs is unacceptable
- We should not abuse individuals for using LLMs, both because that is ineffective at stopping LLM use, and because everyone does harmful things to survive capitalismThe real problem is when people deny the harms, or decide to ignore the harms because of "inevitability" etc. It's understandable that you want the thing you're doing to not be harmful, but wishing won't make it so.
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@mayintoronto @scottjenson @Gargron there's a big difference between ignoring people and abusing people.
@evan Yeah, I mute people who are that aggressive, so I don't see it. You probably see it a lot more than me as an admin.
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@thibaultamartin @scottjenson @carnage4life this, exactly.
@stairjoke @thibaultamartin I'm happy to get comments like this. It's bit frustrating that there do appear to be two camps here, although I'm not surprised.
Part of the reason I "bait" these conversations is to at least bring this discussion into the open. We must realize that our culture *is* the driving force behind our success (or failure)
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@Gargron @scottjenson Put more simply; I care about mastodon being equal opportunity, and improving ease of access for all.
That does not mean the audience segmentation should match other places. Those other places have their own biases skewing their own audiences. I sure as hell don’t think mastodon ought to have the same representation of fascists as twitter does “to be fair”, for example. That place grows those, we do not.
@mattwilcox @gargron @scottjenson
By and large modern Mastodon / Fediverse *is* a welcoming and diverse place.
There have been historical issues with lack of timely moderation, ongoing issues about reply controls and a long standing problem that parts of Fediverse are run by edgelords that had already been yeeted from just about everywhere else (even corporate socials) and they actively try to disrupt things, but its endured this and even attracted interesting segments of folk such as older adults (age 60-70+) who are *not* all tech focused.
What is generally unpopular here is any kind of "hustle" or tech/AI bro culture (no matter who it is from), and those who push it too hard can end up being chased off to the sound of Yakety Sax
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@scottjenson thank you for starting this thread scott, its both good and painful
@laurenshof The only way out is through
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I understand and agree that some content is unacceptable.
We can and should cut off racist, homophobic, misogynistic and transphobic harassers and abusers.
I just don't think using CoPilot tab completion falls into that same bucket of unacceptable behaviour.
@scottjenson @carnage4life I think one opportunity we have on the Fediverse is using AI for richer, deeper social engagement, making ourselves happier and more fulfilled.
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@evan @panos @scottjenson @carnage4life Two things can be true at the same time:
- Using LLMs is unacceptable
- We should not abuse individuals for using LLMs, both because that is ineffective at stopping LLM use, and because everyone does harmful things to survive capitalismThe real problem is when people deny the harms, or decide to ignore the harms because of "inevitability" etc. It's understandable that you want the thing you're doing to not be harmful, but wishing won't make it so.
@skyfaller@jawns.club I don't think that using LLMs is unacceptable. I don't buy the "built on stolen property" argument for this, every developer ever has searched for how to do something in stack overflow etc, I don't know why LLMs shouldn't be trained the same way in order to automate work for us. I get the climate impact argument, but again, flying with airplanes has much more of an impact, but it is normalized by now, practically nobody will tell you it's unacceptable to visit a foreign country by plane. @evan@cosocial.ca @carnage4life@mas.to @scottjenson@social.coop
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@mattwilcox @gargron @scottjenson
By and large modern Mastodon / Fediverse *is* a welcoming and diverse place.
There have been historical issues with lack of timely moderation, ongoing issues about reply controls and a long standing problem that parts of Fediverse are run by edgelords that had already been yeeted from just about everywhere else (even corporate socials) and they actively try to disrupt things, but its endured this and even attracted interesting segments of folk such as older adults (age 60-70+) who are *not* all tech focused.
What is generally unpopular here is any kind of "hustle" or tech/AI bro culture (no matter who it is from), and those who push it too hard can end up being chased off to the sound of Yakety Sax
@vfrmedia @mattwilcox
But even in these last two replies, you're perfectly making my point for me. Do I want AI Grifters? Of course not! But should people be allowed to discuss possible uses of AI? Absolutely! The person I quoted is NOT a grifter but due to our culture, he is seen as one and gleefully shoo'ed away.That is the slippery slope I'm worried about. We can likely agree on many bad actors that should not be here. What we can't seem to agree on is "what is honest debate"
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@scottjenson @carnage4life I think one opportunity we have on the Fediverse is using AI for richer, deeper social engagement, making ourselves happier and more fulfilled.
We have access to platforms through open APIs that have no gatekeepers. We could have MCP or RAG interfaces to servers that we own and operate. We could use them to ask questions like, which of my friends need some support today? Who have I had good conversations with in the past, that I should keep up with better? Who should I follow to help with my career? What volunteer opportunities in my area align with my values?
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@evan @carnage4life @scottjenson @MozillaAI
It is unfortunately very easy to convince yourself that abuse and harrassment are OK as long as they're in service of a morally just cause.
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We have access to platforms through open APIs that have no gatekeepers. We could have MCP or RAG interfaces to servers that we own and operate. We could use them to ask questions like, which of my friends need some support today? Who have I had good conversations with in the past, that I should keep up with better? Who should I follow to help with my career? What volunteer opportunities in my area align with my values?
@scottjenson @carnage4life Facebook, LinkedIn, and X don't allow this kind of API access. No one can keep us from building it here, though.
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@seanwolter @scottjenson You were making decent points until you called everyone here a loser.
@ramsey @scottjenson I’m on here tooooo! 🤪
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson @Gargron “AI people” are not a protected class. It seems much more important that we focus on being a welcoming and inclusive platform for protected classes, particularly actual marginalized communities.
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@mattwilcox First, thank you for this conversation, it's very helpful. Second, while not shipping shared block lists was an issue, there was also issues at the culture level that chased people away. Finally I don't think AI folks need anything, they are just a lightning rod for the "people I don't personally want around" problem. It's a test for how we navigate this going forward.
There are people saying in my replies "we don't want them here". I realize a line that needs to be drawn somewhere (e.g. nazis) but my point is that "as a culture" we should want to have more voices here (in general)
@scottjenson Likewise, while I don’t feel your perspective aligns with mine I’m glad you’re asking the questions.
I will reiterate tho; the fairness that matters is in *access* and *safety* for people to engage.
It is not then about whether the current Mastodon user base is “morally obligated” or “socially owes” anyone any attention at all. (1/2)
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson
wowowo please don't turn things around. AI people are _not_ marginalized, it's the exact opposite. AI people are rich, white, male tech people who see the increase in personal comfort as more important than others' actual life. Those are the people who are _anti-black_. By letting AI people in you are not learning the lessons of the past. You are specifically repeating the mistake, letting racists, sexists, ableists in, pushing away the people who made activitypub what it is today.
Please think better about what "marginalized" actually means -
@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson @Gargron There is nothing, absolutely nothing, stopping anyone from creating and cultivating an AI community on Mastodon. Start a server. Knock yourself out.
But expecting to *farm acceptance* from a group of people, one which most members vastly dislike AI, is quite the hubris.
But sure, the community at large is the problem.
Clean up your kitchen and maybe folks will join you for a meal.
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@skyfaller@jawns.club I don't think that using LLMs is unacceptable. I don't buy the "built on stolen property" argument for this, every developer ever has searched for how to do something in stack overflow etc, I don't know why LLMs shouldn't be trained the same way in order to automate work for us. I get the climate impact argument, but again, flying with airplanes has much more of an impact, but it is normalized by now, practically nobody will tell you it's unacceptable to visit a foreign country by plane. @evan@cosocial.ca @carnage4life@mas.to @scottjenson@social.coop
@panos @evan @carnage4life @scottjenson This is what I'm talking about. You're both minimizing/denying harms and saying they don't matter. This is one of the biggest problems with LLMs, they turn people into apologists for the fossil fuel industry because they don't want to think they're helping destroy the world.
*If* flying is more harmful, that's no excuse. There's always something more harmful until you reach the top, and then the excuse will be it's too important or too difficult to stop.
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@vfrmedia @mattwilcox
But even in these last two replies, you're perfectly making my point for me. Do I want AI Grifters? Of course not! But should people be allowed to discuss possible uses of AI? Absolutely! The person I quoted is NOT a grifter but due to our culture, he is seen as one and gleefully shoo'ed away.That is the slippery slope I'm worried about. We can likely agree on many bad actors that should not be here. What we can't seem to agree on is "what is honest debate"
@scottjenson @vfrmedia I don’t agree with the assertion people are being shooed away. Away from who? This isn’t one space.
But if Mastodon feel thy are, then make the tooling to solve that. And yeah; it’s the same tooling as black people wanted and it’s damning it takes rich white guys complaining to be considered as a problem worth fretting over and maybe tackling now.
Mastodon isn’t a monoculture. Mastodon is a tech stack.
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@scottjenson @carnage4life Facebook, LinkedIn, and X don't allow this kind of API access. No one can keep us from building it here, though.
@scottjenson @carnage4life I think AI skeptics raise some very important questions. I love reading posts here -- especially when they skewer the conventional wisdom in Silicon Valley about productivity gains from AI. And the threat of further power concentration in big tech is very real.
