Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
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@nixCraft I disagree with the personal framing around it, as much as I can disagree about it being a useful creative tool for software development - economics, environmental & social impact issues aside.
He's made very clear arguments of it being a tool like any other tool and he doesn't want to bring in other arguments into the mix. As a maintainer that's his prerogative.
I don't think he's taking this stand because Microsoft or Oracle is paying his salary. Silly thing to say.
His arguments are clear, but they disagree with reality. He argues from technical merit that doesn't exist.
Hence the suspicion of ulterior motives.
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Examples are there to see. Debian vs Devuan is just systemd. Then expand it to the scope of kernel.org.
@pauliehedron @futureisfoss @nixCraft Debian has used other kernels before.. see Debian/kFreeBSD and friends. So there is potential there...
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Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
Linux is not one of those anti-AI projects, and if somebody has issues with that, they can do the open-source thing and fork it.
Or just walk away.”
@nixCraft I don't understand why he would "put his foot down" on this specific issue.
Is he at all concerned by the "productivity" of the volunteers? About the number of lines of code per day?
He even admitted that he wouldn't accept fully LLM generated patches. So why "put your foot down" on any discussion about it?
I'm sensing some Linux Foundation influences here.
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@argv_minus_one @thejessiekirk @nixCraft Initially learned about it here: https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware/issues/580#issue-4737356
This motivated me to join their matrix server and ask about their policies. I was then told there isn't a org-wide policy and was redirected to the forum thread (I don't have it saved, otherwise I'd have linked it too).
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Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
Linux is not one of those anti-AI projects, and if somebody has issues with that, they can do the open-source thing and fork it.
Or just walk away.”
@nixCraft go Hurd !
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I wonder how practical it is to maintain a fork of Linux without any AI generated code.
@futureisfoss @nixCraft You can fork anything, and the fork continues to work. The trouble is if you want to keep parity with all the future device drivers added to Linux, all the new features added, and all the bug and security fixes. That is an enormous effort, requiring thousands of people. Increasingly the burden of that work has shifted from enthusiasts and academics to teams of full-time software engineers working at their day jobs. Linux is big business now, and has been for some time.
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
All of the major #BSDs allow AI code. Even #OpenBSD. https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#operating-systems
In light of all the horror stories of vibe coders getting hacked, this seems really really really bad for security. I don't know what OS to use now.
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Linus Torvalds: “I realize that some people really dislike AI, but this is an area where I'm willing to absolutely put my foot down as the top-level maintainer.
Linux is not one of those anti-AI projects, and if somebody has issues with that, they can do the open-source thing and fork it.
Or just walk away.”
I'm tired of influential idiots.
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
All of the major #BSDs allow AI code. Even #OpenBSD. https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#operating-systems
In light of all the horror stories of vibe coders getting hacked, this seems really really really bad for security. I don't know what OS to use now.
@argv_minus_one @radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms Haiku, Redox OS.
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@radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
All of the major #BSDs allow AI code. Even #OpenBSD. https://codeberg.org/ethical-foss/open-slopware#operating-systems
In light of all the horror stories of vibe coders getting hacked, this seems really really really bad for security. I don't know what OS to use now.
@argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms damn, that's terrible news, thanks for the heads up. FreeDOS? CP/M? Dark times
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@argv_minus_one @radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms Haiku, Redox OS.
@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms I played with Haiku many years ago; not quite to my taste superficially but very impressive and cute. If the UX is customizable I could learn to love it, especially since I'm sure it's progressed since last I took a shallow look. Have they committed to avoiding slop? Has anyone?
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@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms I played with Haiku many years ago; not quite to my taste superficially but very impressive and cute. If the UX is customizable I could learn to love it, especially since I'm sure it's progressed since last I took a shallow look. Have they committed to avoiding slop? Has anyone?
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@argv_minus_one @radicalabacus @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms Haiku, Redox OS.
@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms just wanted to add, Redox OS looks really cool, I'll have to check it out. Doesn't look like a convenient drop in replacement for a Debian daily driver necessarily but definitely interesting
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@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms ok cool, I will definitely check it out again, thank you
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@argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms damn, that's terrible news, thanks for the heads up. FreeDOS? CP/M? Dark times
FreeDOS is on that list.
The listed non-AI alternative, ironically enough, is Microsoft MS-DOS.
@nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms
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@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms just wanted to add, Redox OS looks really cool, I'll have to check it out. Doesn't look like a convenient drop in replacement for a Debian daily driver necessarily but definitely interesting
@radicalabacus @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms Yeah, we are really in the "nascent OS" space nowadays with non-AI based projects -- kinda like how open source was to begin with.
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@radicalabacus @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms Yeah, we are really in the "nascent OS" space nowadays with non-AI based projects -- kinda like how open source was to begin with.
@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms it's not very practical, but at least exploring fresh options can be enjoyable. I wish I was doing this again because of extra free time rather than extra pressure to find something uncontaminated, but it is what it is I guess
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@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms it's not very practical, but at least exploring fresh options can be enjoyable. I wish I was doing this again because of extra free time rather than extra pressure to find something uncontaminated, but it is what it is I guess
@radicalabacus @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms Was telling a friend recently that the advent of AI makes me feel like I am just over tech.
It used to be that you didn't feel like you owned your tools, and I guess we're back to that again.
Seems like it's just more fun to touch grass instead.
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@radicalabacus @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms Was telling a friend recently that the advent of AI makes me feel like I am just over tech.
It used to be that you didn't feel like you owned your tools, and I guess we're back to that again.
Seems like it's just more fun to touch grass instead.
@yoasif @argv_minus_one @nixCraft @loadhigh @faraiwe @Stefan_S_from_H @geospacedman @marcusxms I know what you mean. I swing between optimism and pessimism. The things I do for money, I would mostly only do if someone paid me. But I realize that was always true. I meet people where they are and try to understand and solve their problems, and we don't always see eye to eye on tech. I warn them, and I do what they pay me to.
At the start of my career I was excited about Linux, C, Tcl and Perl but wrote VB6 for Windows for pay. Now I write Java and Python and feel the AI shadows spreading even into my corner, but I can still enjoy a Z80 or a subversive free time project idea. It sucks that they came for the stable tools I'd decided to trust, but I abandoned "sensible" tools for new, unconventional ones before. I can do it again.
Or just throw a ball or ride a bicycle. I'm tired, but I don't want to despair
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His arguments are clear, but they disagree with reality. He argues from technical merit that doesn't exist.
Hence the suspicion of ulterior motives.
@argv_minus_one @nixCraft depends on the definition and how they use it.
If Kernel devs find it useful to discover security issues and fix them before a bad actor exploits them, then you can't discount the benefit it provides. Personally I'd put in the same class of tools a fuzzing etc, but far more expensive and advanced.
