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FARVEL BIG TECH
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  3. I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.

I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.

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  • tante@tldr.nettime.orgT tante@tldr.nettime.org

    I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.

    The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".

    Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.

    compl4xx@chaos.socialC This user is from outside of this forum
    compl4xx@chaos.socialC This user is from outside of this forum
    compl4xx@chaos.social
    wrote sidst redigeret af
    #53

    @tante what do you think about this argument by @pluralistic in https://pluralistic.net/2026/01/01/39c3/ ?

    "And what's got me so excited is that we've got a new coalition in the War on General Purpose Computers: a coalition that includes the digital rights activists who've been on the lines for decades, but also people who want to turn America's Big Tech trillions into billions for their own economy, and national security hawks who are quite rightly worried about digital sovereignty."

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    • tante@tldr.nettime.orgT tante@tldr.nettime.org

      I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.

      The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".

      Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.

      j_feral@digipres.clubJ This user is from outside of this forum
      j_feral@digipres.clubJ This user is from outside of this forum
      j_feral@digipres.club
      wrote sidst redigeret af
      #54

      @tante
      In the USA, data sovereignty is what indigenous peoples are aiming for, reclaiming data stolen by colonial powers, restoring access to the rightful owners.

      Sounds like it means something different in Germany. I think this just varies by geographic location and context.

      Or maybe the definition is morphing here and I haven't noticed...

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      • matt@toot.cafeM matt@toot.cafe

        @tante To be clear, are you talking about the Sovereign Tech Agency and Sovereign Tech Fund, or something different?

        tante@tldr.nettime.orgT This user is from outside of this forum
        tante@tldr.nettime.orgT This user is from outside of this forum
        tante@tldr.nettime.org
        wrote sidst redigeret af
        #55

        @matt No, I am talking about the political strategy/meme that is very dominant these days

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        • bsdphk@fosstodon.orgB bsdphk@fosstodon.org

          @tante

          I insist on calling it "Digital self-determination" for that and other reasons.

          sun@shitposter.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
          sun@shitposter.worldS This user is from outside of this forum
          sun@shitposter.world
          wrote sidst redigeret af
          #56
          @bsdphk @tante white nationalists haven't co-opted "self determination"?
          pettanko@tsundere.loveP bsdphk@fosstodon.orgB 2 Replies Last reply
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          • tante@tldr.nettime.orgT tante@tldr.nettime.org

            I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.

            The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".

            Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.

            amorgner@frankfurt.socialA This user is from outside of this forum
            amorgner@frankfurt.socialA This user is from outside of this forum
            amorgner@frankfurt.social
            wrote sidst redigeret af
            #57

            @tante Good discussion, and thank you for pointing that out. I hadn’t realised this at all until now, partly because I don’t associate the AfD with expertise in digital matters, and partly because for me, the term is used more in a foreign policy context to highlight our dependence on the US for software products and digital services.

            From a human rights perspective, Digital Autonomy is a good term, but perhaps there is another term that fits even better.
            I would be very grateful for one, because as a German open-source company, politically opposed to the AfD, we are currently seeing a lot of interest in alternatives (among other things) to US products and the DS term is working well. But naturally we wish to avoid terms that are inappropriate or have right-wing connotations.

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            • algernon@come-from.mad-scientist.clubA algernon@come-from.mad-scientist.club

              @tante FWIW, Hungary's Fidesz (also a far-right fascist party) is also a big champion of (national) sovereignty. So are many other right-wing parties of the Patriots of Europe group of the EU Parliament.

              Heck, AfD - along with a bunch of other parties even further to the right - are part of the Europe of Sovereign Nations Group.

              That word is very, very right-wing coded indeed.

              mamhoff@toot.berlinM This user is from outside of this forum
              mamhoff@toot.berlinM This user is from outside of this forum
              mamhoff@toot.berlin
              wrote sidst redigeret af
              #58

              @algernon @tante it's core terminology from Carl Schmitt, if you're interested in who first made it a big thing theoretically. Schmitt was sort of the Third Reich's philosopher. Other ideas he championed include stuff like "politics is the distinction between friend and enemy" and "war is the continuation of politics with different means". Very right-wing stuff indeed.

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              • mr_e@infosec.exchangeM mr_e@infosec.exchange

                @dar

                @tante

                You are not wrong, but I get the impression that this is to widen potential vocabulary so the concepts cannot be monopolized. To open the question of, "What do you really mean by that?"

                Consider a counter example. (I read your bio and I'm sorry it's an american example - it's just the best one I have at this time in the morning)

                When someone from rural Missouri says, "Those city folks." As code for negatively talking about black folk from St. Louis. It doesn't mean the words are bad words by themselves. It mean that person is dog whistling to other racists and that is important context to understand under the surface. Recognizing and questioning intent is important.

                Typically the easiest way to undermine someone doing this is to ask, "which people?" It's stupidly simple, but can completely change group dynamics by someone backing off racist intent or doubling down. Which then clues in people who were not hearing this underlying context.

                dar@mastoart.socialD This user is from outside of this forum
                dar@mastoart.socialD This user is from outside of this forum
                dar@mastoart.social
                wrote sidst redigeret af
                #59

                @MR_E @tante I suppose my point, and the reason I commented, is that with all that's happening in the world at the moment.

                Calling 'sovereignty' a fascist word seems a bit.....daft. Faffing around arguing about the decorating when the roof has collapsed kind of daft.

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                • tante@tldr.nettime.orgT tante@tldr.nettime.org

                  I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.

                  The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".

                  Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.

                  mk2boogaloo@freebeerextremist.comM This user is from outside of this forum
                  mk2boogaloo@freebeerextremist.comM This user is from outside of this forum
                  mk2boogaloo@freebeerextremist.com
                  wrote sidst redigeret af
                  #60
                  @tante if you're truly a luddite, how about you try logging out of your nigger faggot life first by jumping from a bridge?
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                  • bsdphk@fosstodon.orgB bsdphk@fosstodon.org

                    @tante

                    I insist on calling it "Digital self-determination" for that and other reasons.

                    mk2boogaloo@freebeerextremist.comM This user is from outside of this forum
                    mk2boogaloo@freebeerextremist.comM This user is from outside of this forum
                    mk2boogaloo@freebeerextremist.com
                    wrote sidst redigeret af
                    #61
                    @bsdphk @tante self-determination fans when people use self-determination to be racist against niggers and kikes.
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                    • bsdphk@fosstodon.orgB bsdphk@fosstodon.org

                      @tante

                      I insist on calling it "Digital self-determination" for that and other reasons.

                      dj@parcero.casaD This user is from outside of this forum
                      dj@parcero.casaD This user is from outside of this forum
                      dj@parcero.casa
                      wrote sidst redigeret af
                      #62
                      @bsdphk @tante
                      Nazis are real big into hetero relationships too, you guys switch teams yet? checks profies, yep nevermind...
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                      • tante@tldr.nettime.orgT tante@tldr.nettime.org

                        I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.

                        The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".

                        Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.

                        larsmb@mastodon.onlineL This user is from outside of this forum
                        larsmb@mastodon.onlineL This user is from outside of this forum
                        larsmb@mastodon.online
                        wrote sidst redigeret af
                        #63

                        @tante I've, too, been concerned about "sovereignty" being too susceptible to nationalist capture. (Which is probably also why it appeals to certain parties despite often funding more progressive projects?)

                        I'm also in favor of a different term for the concept that is less so.

                        However, I also think that it sucks that we yield terms (which actually describes exactly what's intended) to the right-wing national so easily and then are forced to evade 😕

                        tante@tldr.nettime.orgT orb2069@mastodon.onlineO 2 Replies Last reply
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                        • sun@shitposter.worldS sun@shitposter.world
                          @bsdphk @tante white nationalists haven't co-opted "self determination"?
                          pettanko@tsundere.loveP This user is from outside of this forum
                          pettanko@tsundere.loveP This user is from outside of this forum
                          pettanko@tsundere.love
                          wrote sidst redigeret af
                          #64
                          @sun @bsdphk @tante I’m sure hitler said once or twice so using it makes you a super Nazi
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                          • hadon@mastodon.socialH hadon@mastodon.social

                            @jwildeboer @tante

                            Well, for what I understand, sovereignty and autonomy are not equivalent.
                            Sovereignty is a more legal sort of term and stronger than autonomy. Autonomy is part of sovereignty but the opposite is not true. I mean, in order to attain sovereignty you need autonomy, it defines it.

                            https://www-sciencedirect-com.translate.goog/topics/social-sciences/sovereignty?_x_tr_sl=en&_x_tr_tl=fr&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=rq

                            S This user is from outside of this forum
                            S This user is from outside of this forum
                            skaphle@social.tchncs.de
                            wrote sidst redigeret af
                            #65

                            @hadon @jwildeboer @tante I would say, autonomy, as the word part "auto" suggests, can apply to people and institutions on their own. You can have autonomy from X.

                            Sovereignty includes the word "reign". You can not reign without an object, you can have sovereignty over X.

                            As such, the two words are completely different in the way they describe a power struggle. Focus on autonomy and you describe a situation where you want to be free from something (e.g. Big Tech, or US tech, or whatever). Focus on sovereignty and you (and not someone else) should have power over something, typically via property, law, infrastructure involved.

                            I think both can still be used from a right-wing perspective of (EU) nationalism, but autonomy is more open to anarchist anti-capitalist principles.

                            hadon@mastodon.socialH 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • datenwolf@chaos.socialD datenwolf@chaos.social

                              @kejster @jwildeboer @tante

                              It's also a lot more accurate (IMHO) with respect to what the actual goals are/should be.

                              larsmb@mastodon.onlineL This user is from outside of this forum
                              larsmb@mastodon.onlineL This user is from outside of this forum
                              larsmb@mastodon.online
                              wrote sidst redigeret af
                              #66

                              @datenwolf @kejster @jwildeboer @tante I'm not convinced. I don't want to be "autonomous": I want the capability to *act* in an autonomous/sovereign manner, yes.

                              The problem is that the right intentionally reduces "sovereign" to isolationism/nationalism. We kinda need to resist that, because they'll otherwise do it to any other term as well ("independence" is a similar candidate).

                              Maybe throw in an adjective & re-order? "Sovereign digital collaboration".

                              jzakotnik@mastodon.socialJ 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • tante@tldr.nettime.orgT tante@tldr.nettime.org

                                I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.

                                The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".

                                Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.

                                annehargreaves@ioc.exchangeA This user is from outside of this forum
                                annehargreaves@ioc.exchangeA This user is from outside of this forum
                                annehargreaves@ioc.exchange
                                wrote sidst redigeret af
                                #67

                                @tante Brexit was for "Sovrintee" which has made the term pretty toxic here.

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                                • sun@shitposter.worldS sun@shitposter.world
                                  @bsdphk @tante white nationalists haven't co-opted "self determination"?
                                  bsdphk@fosstodon.orgB This user is from outside of this forum
                                  bsdphk@fosstodon.orgB This user is from outside of this forum
                                  bsdphk@fosstodon.org
                                  wrote sidst redigeret af
                                  #68

                                  @sun @tante

                                  They may have uttered it, but where I come from (DK/EU) it's mostly used about provinces and former colonies having had enough.

                                  And that, to me, is the perfect analogy of people finally demanding freedom from the enshitifcators.

                                  sun@shitposter.worldS 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • tante@tldr.nettime.orgT tante@tldr.nettime.org

                                    I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.

                                    The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".

                                    Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.

                                    kkarhan@jorts.horseK This user is from outside of this forum
                                    kkarhan@jorts.horseK This user is from outside of this forum
                                    kkarhan@jorts.horse
                                    wrote sidst redigeret af
                                    #69

                                    @tante +9001%

                                    The correct way would be to push for "freedom & independence" instead.

                                    • Also the #NSAfD needs to be fucking banned for being a #NSDAP copycat.
                                    1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • tante@tldr.nettime.orgT tante@tldr.nettime.org

                                      I have been warning about the term "digital sovereignty" and how it is right-wing coded and probably can't be salvaged for non-right-wing politics.

                                      The German fascist party AfD now created a European foundation to push their fascist politics further. The name: "Sovereignty Foundation".

                                      Even though tactically it might feel like it makes sense to use the term to get funding, you are integrating right wing politics into your thinking and speaking.

                                      sheislaurence@mastodon.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
                                      sheislaurence@mastodon.socialS This user is from outside of this forum
                                      sheislaurence@mastodon.social
                                      wrote sidst redigeret af
                                      #70

                                      @tante i totally understand the sentiment but tactically as you suggest it is working wonders, look at what the 🇫🇷government are doing ( #linux ). I see a lot of people in higher places finally taking the #orangethreat seriously and making big moves very fast. The #EU is also all over that language & in the context of actual invasion threats ( #greenland ) & "simple" US tech dependency of public IT, it makes sense. Funnily enough, it does NOT resonate with the Brits. Maybe no land invasion trauma

                                      P 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • larsmb@mastodon.onlineL larsmb@mastodon.online

                                        @datenwolf @kejster @jwildeboer @tante I'm not convinced. I don't want to be "autonomous": I want the capability to *act* in an autonomous/sovereign manner, yes.

                                        The problem is that the right intentionally reduces "sovereign" to isolationism/nationalism. We kinda need to resist that, because they'll otherwise do it to any other term as well ("independence" is a similar candidate).

                                        Maybe throw in an adjective & re-order? "Sovereign digital collaboration".

                                        jzakotnik@mastodon.socialJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                        jzakotnik@mastodon.socialJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                        jzakotnik@mastodon.social
                                        wrote sidst redigeret af
                                        #71

                                        @larsmb @datenwolf @kejster @jwildeboer @tante I would like to continue to use the word sovereign and within the first 2min of every presentation mention that "sovereign" is not "national" (copied this from @sovtechfund talks I heard). Hope it's clear then.

                                        jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.netJ 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • thanius@mastodon.chuggybumba.comT thanius@mastodon.chuggybumba.com

                                          @tante I agree! Digital independence is a better term imho

                                          S This user is from outside of this forum
                                          S This user is from outside of this forum
                                          skaphle@social.tchncs.de
                                          wrote sidst redigeret af
                                          #72

                                          @thanius @tante Though it's always the question who is independent from who. The way it's coded e.g. in the US-american independence day, it marked a shift from colony to sovereign oppressors and a free country for white men to genocide the indigenous people and legal slavery. As such, using independence as a word seems to me quite inconsiderate towards BIPoC.

                                          But maybe it describes quite well what is happening, if it's a white movement where people want to escape other white people's power to use the means of oppression themselves.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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