When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful!
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@cm Technically it is more or less solved to create decoupled local grids that manage their own frequency while still being synchronised enough to the big grid interconnects. The local grids could actually profit from managing their own frequency as it is a good indicator of the ratio of input and output. @f4grx @derunglaublichefalk
@cm This bottom-up approach to grid design is happening as we speak in regions that didn't have a Big Grid. Think jungle and desert regions. Solar, wind and batteries allows them to create lots of local grids and they are now starting to connect them. That is very different form our western top-down and Holy Grid Frequency thinking. We can learn a lot from what is happening in other places. If we decide to do so
@f4grx @derunglaublichefalk -
@f4grx @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk
3. Wind turbines generate AC (if I understand correctly) - there's many AC generators on a "wind farm", yet they all get synchronized to the network. If the turbines generate DC, or there's DC involved in the transformation/rectification/synchronization, there's a convenient spot to connect the batteries. If it's purely AC/AC, they're already successfully synching it.
There already is a "production point" where synching to the network is feasible.
@rubinjoni @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk lol no, no way to sync wind turbines to AC with the frequency precision required by the grid, there are inverters of course
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@rubinjoni @jwildeboer @derunglaublichefalk lol no, no way to sync wind turbines to AC with the frequency precision required by the grid, there are inverters of course
@f4grx I see "the frequency precision required by the grid" as a way for the grid operators to stay in control. It's a design choice. Allowing partial desyncs within agreed ranges won't break the grid, IF you allow for full decouple when these ranges are exceeded. The Iberian shutdown is a good example of that. If we had defined ways to decouple and resnyc later instead of shutting down massive amounts of renewable plants, the blackout could have been avoided. @rubinjoni @derunglaublichefalk
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@f4grx I see "the frequency precision required by the grid" as a way for the grid operators to stay in control. It's a design choice. Allowing partial desyncs within agreed ranges won't break the grid, IF you allow for full decouple when these ranges are exceeded. The Iberian shutdown is a good example of that. If we had defined ways to decouple and resnyc later instead of shutting down massive amounts of renewable plants, the blackout could have been avoided. @rubinjoni @derunglaublichefalk
@jwildeboer @rubinjoni @derunglaublichefalk man, the grid frequency is important for much more infrastructure that you think! I understand your point, for sure. but I am reaaaallly not sure that it's feasible!
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@jwildeboer @rubinjoni @derunglaublichefalk man, the grid frequency is important for much more infrastructure that you think! I understand your point, for sure. but I am reaaaallly not sure that it's feasible!
@f4grx My point is — we are not even trying to explore the feasibility, because it is immediately shut down with "The Holy Grid Frequency Shall Not Be Questioned". But exactly this approach of a new grid design is now being explored in regions where there effectively is no grid but lots of local solar/wind plants. @rubinjoni @derunglaublichefalk
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@Reinald There's real scarcity and artificial scarcity. I dare say that the whole digital/internet business is based on artificial scarcity, where we accept things like Digital Rights Management to keep the reality of abundance more or less a secret.
@jwildeboer @Reinald in the biophysical domain scarcity is more or less anchored on the planetary boundaries (and within reason, renewable energy is not constrained by them
, though it gets more complicated with supply chains and waste etc)In the human domain, what can I say, this magical silicon stuff is something humanity doesn't deserve. For decades visionaries waxed lyrical about its incredible potential and in practice all that happens is deeper levels of dystopia. Something's gotta give
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer
more like it's the legislative branch is bought and paid for by the petro state... -
@jwildeboer @Reinald in the biophysical domain scarcity is more or less anchored on the planetary boundaries (and within reason, renewable energy is not constrained by them
, though it gets more complicated with supply chains and waste etc)In the human domain, what can I say, this magical silicon stuff is something humanity doesn't deserve. For decades visionaries waxed lyrical about its incredible potential and in practice all that happens is deeper levels of dystopia. Something's gotta give
@openrisk @jwildeboer for me, abundance means: enough for everybody. It is, of course, within planetary limits. With growth rates declining, peak humanity might be at 10 or 11 Billion human beeings. And they all could have a decent and healthy life. They could not all have 150m yachts and private jets.
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@openrisk @jwildeboer for me, abundance means: enough for everybody. It is, of course, within planetary limits. With growth rates declining, peak humanity might be at 10 or 11 Billion human beeings. And they all could have a decent and healthy life. They could not all have 150m yachts and private jets.
one would have to do the calculation but its not inconceivable that everybody of the 11 billion could have at least *some* "yacht" experience in their lives (and 50% would get sea-sick and hate it
).Of course if we keep inventing materially wasteful status symbols to play paleolithic social dominance games via "ownership" and exlcusion, we do run against hard limits. So-called "space tourism" comes to mind as obvious example.
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one would have to do the calculation but its not inconceivable that everybody of the 11 billion could have at least *some* "yacht" experience in their lives (and 50% would get sea-sick and hate it
).Of course if we keep inventing materially wasteful status symbols to play paleolithic social dominance games via "ownership" and exlcusion, we do run against hard limits. So-called "space tourism" comes to mind as obvious example.
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@jwildeboer @openrisk yes and no. Ending Scarcity is not in the interest of big companies in that area. And the Technologie is allready there - batteries work (even commercially), H2 electrolysis not yet, seasonal cycles not yet. For short term stabilizing even flywheels work.
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@ChrisW84 Remember that most of the current grid operators were created through privatising the grid, which used to be publicly owned infrastructure. They happily took over the grids, reduced investing for many years while driving up the costs for consumers in the name of shareholder value.
@jwildeboer das muss man klar differenzieren. In den 90ern haben die großen Konzerne wie E.ON, RWE usw soviel Kapital wie möglich aus Kraftwerken und Netzen gezogen und kaum investiert. Die Kraftwerke wurden geschlossen und die Netze an die jetzigen Betreiber veräußert. Den trümmerhaufen haben die jetzigen Betreiber zum Großteil erneuert und ausgebaut mit Kapital vom Markt oder aktivierbar mit Segen der BNetzA über Netzentgelte. Die wären schon viel weiter ohne die Politischen Bremser.
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer We have been brainwashed by capitalism.
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer It's fair to claim that the 'American Experiment' is based on the wealthiest controlling root, vital infrastructure, to setup and continue abuses such as this. #PlannedObsolescence #education, #UltraProcessedFoods diminishing vitality range - especially brain function based on gi tract depletion - conditioning into trickle-DOWN economics, without symmetrical return.
Since a Mamdani/Bernie/AOC team needs scale, a #DemocraticSocialist #Revolution is required. So how to get started?..
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer exactly that is the problem!
- Alongside the way #privatization makes #energy more expensive!
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer Not to speak of all the ways extra electricity could be used opportunistically. Thinking of scrap yards steel recycling for example.
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer
I also think, that batteries/storage solutions are one of the next necessary steps. -
When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer "It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry." I think you're on to something here!
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When renewables flood the grid with more electricity than is needed at that moment, we don’t say „How wonderful! Let’s find ways to store that excess electricity so we can share it back to the grid when needed.“ Instead we sing the song of fossil fuel capitalism that claims this is a BAD thing and we need to shut down the renewable plants so The Grid can keep on working based on scarcity and rent seeking. It's like we all have been brainwashed by the grid operators and the fossile fuel industry.
@jwildeboer We need constant reliability and have legacy constraints. Utilities *should* be cautious and slow to change. It's moving, but it's not entirely clear how you get from current state to a better grid, given regulator/rate-payer caution and ignorance. If all loads are now DC from a grid perspective, maybe we need an entirely new grid. And in some place we are doing that.
The grid started as disjoint, private, local (often coop) efforts. The new grid might well start the same way.
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@jwildeboer you are right on this. Digital media is managed for scarcity. But in pysical world it is not so much different - most scarcity is artificial. If we would organize smarter, distribute better, produce more intelligently, many many people would suffer way less.
@Reinald @jwildeboer Yes, in theory. As someone who grew up in a centrally planned economy, I'm doubtful that the society can do much better than capitalism.
