As I've been saying, Fedora is my current #Linux candidate - but there's still some red flags...
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As I've been saying, Fedora is my current #Linux candidate - but there's still some red flags... like, can it seriously be that in the software manager, if there's updates for several things you only have the option of running all of them, or none!?
That's the kind of thing that would have me never update my system, ever, just to keep from accidentally having an app I like ruined by an update I didn't want...
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As I've been saying, Fedora is my current #Linux candidate - but there's still some red flags... like, can it seriously be that in the software manager, if there's updates for several things you only have the option of running all of them, or none!?
That's the kind of thing that would have me never update my system, ever, just to keep from accidentally having an app I like ruined by an update I didn't want...
@jwcph There is a good reason for that. Packages are built with certain versions of dependencies in mind. If you could update only some but not others, then they would break. It might still be possible to set some packages to never update (if you accept the risk that it may break stuff) by editing configuration files. Though I wouldn't know how to do that on Fedora.
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As I've been saying, Fedora is my current #Linux candidate - but there's still some red flags... like, can it seriously be that in the software manager, if there's updates for several things you only have the option of running all of them, or none!?
That's the kind of thing that would have me never update my system, ever, just to keep from accidentally having an app I like ruined by an update I didn't want...
@jwcph er det nu, jeg skal gøre dig opmærksom på dette toot? https://mastodon.social/@nixCraft/115422658513638385
Ps: Jeg kører selv Fedora pg opdaterer alt hele tiden, og har aldrig haft problemer med det
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@jwcph There is a good reason for that. Packages are built with certain versions of dependencies in mind. If you could update only some but not others, then they would break. It might still be possible to set some packages to never update (if you accept the risk that it may break stuff) by editing configuration files. Though I wouldn't know how to do that on Fedora.
@mezz I'd get that if we were talking about the system update only - but we're not. It's a list that includes a system update plus any number of unrelated apps that you have on your system, for which updates are also available.
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@jwcph er det nu, jeg skal gøre dig opmærksom på dette toot? https://mastodon.social/@nixCraft/115422658513638385
Ps: Jeg kører selv Fedora pg opdaterer alt hele tiden, og har aldrig haft problemer med det
@klgn Nå, det var så dén kandidat. Ret nederen - det er klart den jeg har haft det bedst med her i min testperiode, men det dér er 100% en dealbreaker.
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J jwcph@helvede.net shared this topic
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@mezz I'd get that if we were talking about the system update only - but we're not. It's a list that includes a system update plus any number of unrelated apps that you have on your system, for which updates are also available.
@jwcph It doesn't really work like that. Even your "unrelated" apps have dependencies, and they have to be in tune with what's installed on your system. Many updates of packages are actually not necessarily because a new version of that software has been released, but rather because a dependency of it updated, and it needs to recompile to work with that new version.
As far as updates are concerned, there is no functional difference between "system" apps and "other" apps. They are all part of this ecosystem, that your distro maintains for you to stay functional.
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@jwcph It doesn't really work like that. Even your "unrelated" apps have dependencies, and they have to be in tune with what's installed on your system. Many updates of packages are actually not necessarily because a new version of that software has been released, but rather because a dependency of it updated, and it needs to recompile to work with that new version.
As far as updates are concerned, there is no functional difference between "system" apps and "other" apps. They are all part of this ecosystem, that your distro maintains for you to stay functional.
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@jwcph
Out of everything I've seen someone say about #Linux, this is probably to most bizarre. I'm so confused by this post that I genuinely don't know how to respond to it. I've never heard of anyone having such an issue with keeping their system fully updated. I mean, if it's that much of an issue for you, than just use AppImages and Flatpacks, but you really should keep everything updated for security reasons. -
@jwcph
Out of everything I've seen someone say about #Linux, this is probably to most bizarre. I'm so confused by this post that I genuinely don't know how to respond to it. I've never heard of anyone having such an issue with keeping their system fully updated. I mean, if it's that much of an issue for you, than just use AppImages and Flatpacks, but you really should keep everything updated for security reasons.Yeah, the same, I am not sure if this is a baited thread or not.
They have demonstrated a massive fundamental misunderstanding of how all operating system software works.
So... It doesn't work the way you think it does.
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@SnowBlind2005 @vortexal OK, first, fuck right off with your condescension. Second, you guys don't understand how anything *except* operating systems work. If I had a dollar for every time an app update has cost me grief/time/money because the vendor changed something I didn't want changed...
- and you're saying just trust dozens of (often volunteer) devs to update their app every time the OS does, without fucking with dozens of my workflows? You have no idea what the fuck your asking.
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@SnowBlind2005 @vortexal OK, first, fuck right off with your condescension. Second, you guys don't understand how anything *except* operating systems work. If I had a dollar for every time an app update has cost me grief/time/money because the vendor changed something I didn't want changed...
- and you're saying just trust dozens of (often volunteer) devs to update their app every time the OS does, without fucking with dozens of my workflows? You have no idea what the fuck your asking.
@SnowBlind2005 @vortexal I've been testing Linuxes for just a few weeks & have had 3-4 OS updates already; you're telling me each one of those requires EVERY APP on the system to be updated lest it breaks, or to some sort of tech limbo around it, making it my own job to maintain all of my apps manually - are you fucking insane?
If this is seriously the case, then Linux is simply not fit for professional use. I can't ask my IT department for +1000 employees to deal with that.
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@SnowBlind2005 @vortexal OK, first, fuck right off with your condescension. Second, you guys don't understand how anything *except* operating systems work. If I had a dollar for every time an app update has cost me grief/time/money because the vendor changed something I didn't want changed...
- and you're saying just trust dozens of (often volunteer) devs to update their app every time the OS does, without fucking with dozens of my workflows? You have no idea what the fuck your asking.
@jwcph
It was already mentioned in this thread but you clearly seem to have either forgotten or you're blatantly ignoring it, but the dependencies aren't being updated to work with the new software, it's the software that needs to be updated to work with the new dependencies.That is why you sometimes need to install additional packages when software is being updated. -
As I've been saying, Fedora is my current #Linux candidate - but there's still some red flags... like, can it seriously be that in the software manager, if there's updates for several things you only have the option of running all of them, or none!?
That's the kind of thing that would have me never update my system, ever, just to keep from accidentally having an app I like ruined by an update I didn't want...
@jwcph kan du være mere præcis ifht. hvad der er all-or-nothing?
Jeg spørger fordi I Gnome Software Manageren, som er den du har i Fedora, vil app’s installeret som eks. Flatpak blive opdateret enkeltvis. Bruger man manageren til at installere disse Flatpaks, kan du vælge hvilke apps du opdaterer.
Men det er måske en anden slags opdatering du refererer til?
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@jwcph
It was already mentioned in this thread but you clearly seem to have either forgotten or you're blatantly ignoring it, but the dependencies aren't being updated to work with the new software, it's the software that needs to be updated to work with the new dependencies.That is why you sometimes need to install additional packages when software is being updated.@vortexal I don't care how it works under the hood. I'm worried that, presented with an OS update I do want/should do, I get a list of dozens of seemingly unrelated apps to also update. If you're telling me that all those will always also be system elements, then all I ask is that this is clear - because I've updated apps & regretted it enough times to be terrified of it.
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@jwcph kan du være mere præcis ifht. hvad der er all-or-nothing?
Jeg spørger fordi I Gnome Software Manageren, som er den du har i Fedora, vil app’s installeret som eks. Flatpak blive opdateret enkeltvis. Bruger man manageren til at installere disse Flatpaks, kan du vælge hvilke apps du opdaterer.
Men det er måske en anden slags opdatering du refererer til?
@mosgaard Det er uklart, og det er vist problemet
ved mindst en update i min test fik jeg en liste, som var OS plus 20-30 andre apps som jeg ikke aner hvad er. Hvis de alle er system-elementer, som bare teknisk set er individuelle apps, så er det måske fint... jeg får indtryk af at skulle vælge mellem for lidt og ALT for meget kontrol over, hvad der sker på min computer 
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@vortexal I don't care how it works under the hood. I'm worried that, presented with an OS update I do want/should do, I get a list of dozens of seemingly unrelated apps to also update. If you're telling me that all those will always also be system elements, then all I ask is that this is clear - because I've updated apps & regretted it enough times to be terrified of it.
@jwcph
From my personal experience, when ever a distro that I'm using has an OS update, there may be some non-system packages that are updated as well because the older software/packages may become incompatible. This happens on Windows as well but the difference is that the update manager in Linux distros will handle these updates automatically, instead of requiring the user to manually update their software. -
@mosgaard Det er uklart, og det er vist problemet
ved mindst en update i min test fik jeg en liste, som var OS plus 20-30 andre apps som jeg ikke aner hvad er. Hvis de alle er system-elementer, som bare teknisk set er individuelle apps, så er det måske fint... jeg får indtryk af at skulle vælge mellem for lidt og ALT for meget kontrol over, hvad der sker på min computer @jwcph opdaterer du i terminalen?
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@jwcph opdaterer du i terminalen?
@mosgaard Nej, app manager.
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@jwcph
From my personal experience, when ever a distro that I'm using has an OS update, there may be some non-system packages that are updated as well because the older software/packages may become incompatible. This happens on Windows as well but the difference is that the update manager in Linux distros will handle these updates automatically, instead of requiring the user to manually update their software.@vortexal I think my problem is that I have no idea what I'm being asked to do & crucially, may be asked to do in the future if I switch - this makes the decision to do so extremely difficult...
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@mosgaard Nej, app manager.
@jwcph ok, jeg tror det opfører sig anderledes end i de Gnome-distros jeg har prøvet.
Zorin har f.eks. delt det op så de fleste apps opdateres gennem Software manageren men system opdateringen har sin egen Software Updater. Den kan du jo prøve at give et spin hvis det er.
