It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
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! There's a Wikipedia page on the Purity Spiral, but its quite meagre in information it provides. The purity spiral benefits opposite extremes, and is a perfect tool for the right as a weapon to sow division and strife. Just throw in the red meat and close the door, then take popcorn and watch the fight ensue..https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral
The one-sided description on this page is quite on the mark though:
> "Purity spiral" is a term for a form of infighting between activists and members of victim groups, in which they seek to outdo each other in zealotry. This self-reinforcing feedback loop is sometimes called "moral outbidding".
Ways to counteract the purity spiral involve the whole group being aware of the anti-pattern and be vocal together to bring back reason and calm. But many people often don't dare to counteract the agressive extremist and stay silent, which reinforces the vicious cycle. The extremist wields their own tools, like influence and peer pressure.
@smallcircles @benroyce @plexus My band once played a very muddy punk picnic at Marx Meadows in Golden Gate Park. A skinhead grabbed the mic while we were in between songs to talk about how anti-racist he was. A second skinhead grabbed the other mic to say that he was even more anti-racist. They really got into it, arguing over who was the least racist, until they were rolling in the mud punching each other and the show could go on.
There's a moral in there somewhere, I suppose. -
@smallcircles @benroyce @plexus My band once played a very muddy punk picnic at Marx Meadows in Golden Gate Park. A skinhead grabbed the mic while we were in between songs to talk about how anti-racist he was. A second skinhead grabbed the other mic to say that he was even more anti-racist. They really got into it, arguing over who was the least racist, until they were rolling in the mud punching each other and the show could go on.
There's a moral in there somewhere, I suppose.@tito_swineflu @benroyce @plexus
Yea, I've witnessed the equivalent of that online too, unfortunately.
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Wow this is really resonating with people, eh? Welcome followers
BTW I organise a really cool conference you should come
️ @plexus What a necessary conference. If it were easier for me to get to Europe I’d be there. We need it here in the USA too…
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
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@tito_swineflu @benroyce @plexus
Yea, I've witnessed the equivalent of that online too, unfortunately.
@tito_swineflu @benroyce @plexus
Oh, btw, I wrote a couple of years ago about the Purity Spiral, on the Humane Tech Community forum, fyi:
https://community.humanetech.com/t/social-media-and-purity-spirals/5263
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@tobyjaffey @plexus The best defense is a good offence, and when someone makes you feel morally inferior, when moral purity is your only thing... it's easier to show they aren't pure after all, rather than doing self improvement.
I thankfully don't actually get this much with the stuff I'm working on. People just say thank you, surprisingly. I think it's because everyone I interact with is donating time and data.
Giving people a very easy way to help may reduce the amount of this you get.
@theeclecticdyslexic @tobyjaffey @plexus Being someone who doesn't drink has similar effects some places.
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus an excellent analysis of Teresa of Avila* in her autobiography: for a soul such as this will have a thousand eyes on it. While a thousand souls of a baser nature will not have a single one
*First doctoress of the church
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@plexus @tiefling Someone here posted once that, "The world might be burning but at least I'm more moral than that guy."
It blew my mind. I said that needs to be on humanity's gravestone. My expansions sounded high and mighty, so I left them out, but I was actually seeing a very awful part of myself in that statement. Something I loath a great deal. And there it was ... just out and free having a fucking party.
No, really. People thought it was great. It was a Cybertruck driver so... v0v
@crazyeddie @plexus @tiefling Extends also to politics. Insignificant issues are blown out of proportion for the Green parties, conservatives with mud still sticking to their boots benefit. This is also why there is Trump. Standards were at an impossible level for Kamala Harris, and 40 % decided not to vote at all.
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus One could just reply with something like "You're not my employer, this is volunteer work, fuck off"
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@crazyeddie @plexus @tiefling Extends also to politics. Insignificant issues are blown out of proportion for the Green parties, conservatives with mud still sticking to their boots benefit. This is also why there is Trump. Standards were at an impossible level for Kamala Harris, and 40 % decided not to vote at all.
@xenophyte @plexus @tiefling They ran a really dumb campaign and she really wasn't anything to be happy about. The best thing she had going for her was that she wasn't Trump or some other hate filled crazy person.
I think they're short sighted maybe but I can't blame people who just can't get excited about the controlled opposition, and that's what she represented. Should have voted for her anyway but ...
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus The same happens for things like choosing cycling or public transit over motordom, or trying your best to eat local/seasonal food, etc. "Greta Thunberg took a jet once so clearly everything she says is wrong."
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus
A friend of my husband likes to reply to these kinds of criticisms with “Thank you for volunteering.”The ones who are serious will, the others will usually shut up. Repeat as necessary.
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@theeclecticdyslexic @tobyjaffey @plexus Being someone who doesn't drink has similar effects some places.
@ariaflame @tobyjaffey @plexus Any time you do differently to an insecure person.
I've experienced criticism for trying hard to abstain from:
- closed software and socials
- alcohol
- LLMs
- fast fashionI don't even abstain from these, just reduce:
- dairy
- meat
- luxury travel
- natural gas
- personal gas vehicle useI simply openly acknowledged the existence of:
- easily preventable illness or injury
- climate change
- perverse profit incentives
- racism
- exploitation of the global south -
It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus there's the "doubters" too that just whittle you down over time. Yes the next major release I'm working on is taking forever, I'm aware. In fact I've documented why numerous times. But constantly posting "if it ever comes out" sure doesn't help my motivation at all...
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus paving roads with good intentions -
@xenophyte @plexus @tiefling They ran a really dumb campaign and she really wasn't anything to be happy about. The best thing she had going for her was that she wasn't Trump or some other hate filled crazy person.
I think they're short sighted maybe but I can't blame people who just can't get excited about the controlled opposition, and that's what she represented. Should have voted for her anyway but ...
@crazyeddie @plexus @tiefling Thank you for your reply, I am honestly interested what you disliked. A former attorney general and with Tim Walz, a former teacher and coach, faculty advisor. They had civil rights, LGBTQ+ rights, health care, increase of the minimum wage in their program. They wanted to limit immunity of a president for crimes committed in office… And so much more, link below.
What was dumb about their campaign (in the spirit of this dicussion here) especially when compared to the Trump campaign?
Link to the Harris/Walz program:
https://politifact.com/article/2024/sep/30/kamala-harris-2024-campaign-promises-here-are-her/
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@crazyeddie @plexus @tiefling Thank you for your reply, I am honestly interested what you disliked. A former attorney general and with Tim Walz, a former teacher and coach, faculty advisor. They had civil rights, LGBTQ+ rights, health care, increase of the minimum wage in their program. They wanted to limit immunity of a president for crimes committed in office… And so much more, link below.
What was dumb about their campaign (in the spirit of this dicussion here) especially when compared to the Trump campaign?
Link to the Harris/Walz program:
https://politifact.com/article/2024/sep/30/kamala-harris-2024-campaign-promises-here-are-her/
@crazyeddie @plexus @tiefling And here are Trumps promises, for comparison.
https://politifact.com/article/2024/sep/30/donald-trumps-2024-campaign-promises-heres-his-vis/
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
@plexus trolls abound. steady at the helm.
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It's kind of infuriating how, as soon as you try to do good, you're held to impossible standards.
People are shit and companies are shit all the time and nobody bats an eye. But do volunteer work for your FOSS community, start a project that tries to do things more ethically, just be visibly not shit, and people left and right come out of the woodwork to point out all the ways in which you are not being absolutely flawless and perfect, and all the work that needs doing that you're not yet taking upon you.
The people actually doing the work are also the people who are being asked to do even more, and who are being critised the most. It's a really insiduous pattern and we all need to be better at recognising it and squashing it.
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@plexus @bert_hubert it’s very similar to the antipattern among the queer community where it’s taken for granted that of course big, well-funded, mainstream cultural works aren’t going to be very queer, but when an independent queer author or studio puts out their plucky little piece of media, it gets put under a microscope and torn to shreds over every conceivable angle of criticism by the very people who say we need more queer media
@0xabad1dea @plexus @bert_hubert As we said back in my day, "Haters gonna hate". And you ignore them and keep doing your thing.
