I just came across an article that says #Bluesky now supports uploading videos up to 3 minutes long.
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I just came across an article that says #Bluesky now supports uploading videos up to 3 minutes long.
Sorry for the extremely newbie question but I wonder what the impact would be on the hypotethical of a self-hosted relay?
In a phenomenal article from last year @cwebber wrote that running a relay in November 2024 required 5 TERABYTES of storage (https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky)... up from 1 TB in July 2024.
Does video make Bluesky decentralization / self-hosting a relay even more unattainable?
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I just came across an article that says #Bluesky now supports uploading videos up to 3 minutes long.
Sorry for the extremely newbie question but I wonder what the impact would be on the hypotethical of a self-hosted relay?
In a phenomenal article from last year @cwebber wrote that running a relay in November 2024 required 5 TERABYTES of storage (https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky)... up from 1 TB in July 2024.
Does video make Bluesky decentralization / self-hosting a relay even more unattainable?
No impact on the relay. The relay transmits the records, not all of the actual data itself. The video is stored on your PDS. The PDS sends a record to the relay, and that record contains a reference to where the post and video is hosted. The appview receives this record from the relay, and then requests the rest of the data it needs from the PDS.
In practice this is slightly more complicated because for media bsky uses a CDN, which also does store the video
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No impact on the relay. The relay transmits the records, not all of the actual data itself. The video is stored on your PDS. The PDS sends a record to the relay, and that record contains a reference to where the post and video is hosted. The appview receives this record from the relay, and then requests the rest of the data it needs from the PDS.
In practice this is slightly more complicated because for media bsky uses a CDN, which also does store the video
@laurenshof thank you for the great explanation Laurens - I really appreciate!
Sort of related: do you know anyone who is tracking how much storage a new relay would require? I wonder what the updated number would be right now (compared to November 2024)
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@laurenshof thank you for the great explanation Laurens - I really appreciate!
Sort of related: do you know anyone who is tracking how much storage a new relay would require? I wonder what the updated number would be right now (compared to November 2024)
havent seen any of those recently I think. To answer a different question however -
this might be of interest: https://bsky.bad-example.com/can-atproto-scale-down/It's not really the relay that is expensive to host, it is the appview that is expensive. And what that article is saying is that the reason hosting an appview is expensive is the scaling-up part. it is possible to host a network-wide appview for cheap if only a few people use the appview.
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havent seen any of those recently I think. To answer a different question however -
this might be of interest: https://bsky.bad-example.com/can-atproto-scale-down/It's not really the relay that is expensive to host, it is the appview that is expensive. And what that article is saying is that the reason hosting an appview is expensive is the scaling-up part. it is possible to host a network-wide appview for cheap if only a few people use the appview.
the same mechanism seems to apply to relays as well. It is not actually that expensive to host a relay if only 1 or 2 other apps consume from the relay, and that is before the latest update that cuts down on size. A relay is expensive for Bluesky PBC because they have hundreds of consumers, and that causes a lot of traffic, which is expensive (plus better hardware etc)
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the same mechanism seems to apply to relays as well. It is not actually that expensive to host a relay if only 1 or 2 other apps consume from the relay, and that is before the latest update that cuts down on size. A relay is expensive for Bluesky PBC because they have hundreds of consumers, and that causes a lot of traffic, which is expensive (plus better hardware etc)
@laurenshof @_elena I have read that article and I do not believe your impressions are correct. Busy now, but if you remind me tomorrow I can explain. I don't believe this article shows that it is possible to decentralize ATProto. Some parts of it show the opposite. More later, if you remind me.
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@laurenshof @_elena I have read that article and I do not believe your impressions are correct. Busy now, but if you remind me tomorrow I can explain. I don't believe this article shows that it is possible to decentralize ATProto. Some parts of it show the opposite. More later, if you remind me.
Will defintiely remind you, very interested in reading your response. To be clear, are you talking about the appview or the relay here?
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Also im very curious on which parts you actually disagree. Like, people are currently running both fullnetwork relays and appviews for cheap. They can be cheap because they are not open to the public, so very few consumers on them. Saying that relays/appviews can be cheap isnt really a hypothetical situation at this point
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@laurenshof @_elena The appview may be possible, though it still has the quadratic scaling problem, and this does not show a full appview. The relay still has a quadratic scaling problem. And if more people "followed the advice" of this blogpost, it would cause a problem for the atproto network. But:
> It's not really the relay that is expensive to host, it is the appview that is expensive.
Almost certainly false..
Actually remind me Thursday. A bit overwhelmed
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Also im very curious on which parts you actually disagree. Like, people are currently running both fullnetwork relays and appviews for cheap. They can be cheap because they are not open to the public, so very few consumers on them. Saying that relays/appviews can be cheap isnt really a hypothetical situation at this point
@laurenshof @_elena Would be interested in any and all articles talking experiences of people hosting full relays capable of fulfilling bluesky's goals, and their costs.
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@laurenshof @_elena The appview may be possible, though it still has the quadratic scaling problem, and this does not show a full appview. The relay still has a quadratic scaling problem. And if more people "followed the advice" of this blogpost, it would cause a problem for the atproto network. But:
> It's not really the relay that is expensive to host, it is the appview that is expensive.
Almost certainly false..
Actually remind me Thursday. A bit overwhelmed
I'm interested too! I thought that article was interesting but it didn't particularly change my views on decentralization.
@_elena for relay storage sie, somebody in the Discord chat estimated 10 GB per hour of replay for an archival relay. (Non-archival relays are smaller,. but as I understand it there's still some work in progress related to how thes are used, and I don't know what the tradeoffs are).
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I'm interested too! I thought that article was interesting but it didn't particularly change my views on decentralization.
@_elena for relay storage sie, somebody in the Discord chat estimated 10 GB per hour of replay for an archival relay. (Non-archival relays are smaller,. but as I understand it there's still some work in progress related to how thes are used, and I don't know what the tradeoffs are).
Another update on relay size - https://bsky.app/profile/bnewbold.net/post/3lkpdjgj5pk2i
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Another update on relay size - https://bsky.app/profile/bnewbold.net/post/3lkpdjgj5pk2i
@jdp23 @_elena @laurenshof note for someone skimming this: messages are not held longer than 72 hours in this setup
