"A study of physicians in Poland who specialize in endoscopy — the use of flexible probes to examine the inside of the human body — shows how quickly AI tools can erode human abilities.
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@remixtures Before I form an opinion on this I want to know the number that they get *with* the AI.
If it's lower than 28.4 I will agree that this is bad. If it's higher than that I think we need to sit down and consider that maybe the question is not how do we stop AI but rather how do we take control of it from the hands of the corrupt billionaires.
@renardboy @remixtures @wandrecanada
Yet again we meet the linguistic use of AI to mean two entirely different things
Version 1: machine learning
Version 2: large language models.Which do we think is useful for spotting medical anomalies in diagnostic images?
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"A study of physicians in Poland who specialize in endoscopy — the use of flexible probes to examine the inside of the human body — shows how quickly AI tools can erode human abilities. The physicians, who had all performed at least 2,000 colonoscopies during their careers, were given access to an AI system that analyses colonoscopy images in real time and flags a type of precancerous intestinal lesion called an adenoma. The tool was available to the specialists on some days but not on others.
Once physicians began using it, their performance dropped significantly whenever the system was unavailable. During the three-month period before the AI tool was introduced, the specialists found at least one adenoma during 28.4% of colonoscopies. During the three-month period after the tool was introduced, the adenoma detection rate for colonoscopies performed without AI assistance decreased to 22.4%.
Gastroenterology and Hepatology, suggest that even highly skilled professionals might get worse at tasks that their job requires as they become more dependent on AI tools, says Robert Wachter, a physician at the University of California, San Francisco, who is the author of a book on how AI tools are transforming health care. The study authors say that continuous exposure to such tools can cause clinicians to become “less motivated, less focused, and less responsible when making cognitive decisions without AI assistance”.
Co-author Yuichi Mori, a physician-researcher at the University of Oslo, says that more studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon. But people who use AI tools should be aware that they risk losing some of their skills, he adds. “There is no established solution against deskilling right now. It should be a very hot research topic in the next decade.”"
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@renardboy @remixtures @wandrecanada
Yet again we meet the linguistic use of AI to mean two entirely different things
Version 1: machine learning
Version 2: large language models.Which do we think is useful for spotting medical anomalies in diagnostic images?
@OneInterestingFact @remixtures My understanding is that (if we accept that what we're dealing with qualifies as "intelligence", which I really only do to avoid derailing conversations away from their topics) LLMs are a specific application of the larger field of machine learning.
Unless I'm wrong there is relatively little to LLMs that is specific to them and not machine learning at large, but please correct me if I am.
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@renardboy @remixtures And for transparency's sake I was promoting web tech's potential during the time of the dot com bubble.
But I also preached to anyone seeking advice that they should understand the need before implementing. I can't tell you how many faces were surprised I told them they shouldn't hire me because they had no idea what the tech even did.
It was just FOMO and a top down directive.
EVERY
DAMN
TIME
@wandrecanada @remixtures I think the dot com bubble is pretty much unquestionably the best parallel to draw with what's happening right now.
Thanks to the work of good people during that critical period, the internet is fairly free. Definitely not as much as we'd like, but also definitely more than the ruling class would like.
I believe those who will make a greater positive impact on history are those who work to democratize this new tech, not those who reject it.
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"A study of physicians in Poland who specialize in endoscopy — the use of flexible probes to examine the inside of the human body — shows how quickly AI tools can erode human abilities. The physicians, who had all performed at least 2,000 colonoscopies during their careers, were given access to an AI system that analyses colonoscopy images in real time and flags a type of precancerous intestinal lesion called an adenoma. The tool was available to the specialists on some days but not on others.
Once physicians began using it, their performance dropped significantly whenever the system was unavailable. During the three-month period before the AI tool was introduced, the specialists found at least one adenoma during 28.4% of colonoscopies. During the three-month period after the tool was introduced, the adenoma detection rate for colonoscopies performed without AI assistance decreased to 22.4%.
Gastroenterology and Hepatology, suggest that even highly skilled professionals might get worse at tasks that their job requires as they become more dependent on AI tools, says Robert Wachter, a physician at the University of California, San Francisco, who is the author of a book on how AI tools are transforming health care. The study authors say that continuous exposure to such tools can cause clinicians to become “less motivated, less focused, and less responsible when making cognitive decisions without AI assistance”.
Co-author Yuichi Mori, a physician-researcher at the University of Oslo, says that more studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon. But people who use AI tools should be aware that they risk losing some of their skills, he adds. “There is no established solution against deskilling right now. It should be a very hot research topic in the next decade.”"
@remixtures
You talk about clinicians losing skill through Ai use as if it's a bad thing, Miguel.
</sarcasm> -
"A study of physicians in Poland who specialize in endoscopy — the use of flexible probes to examine the inside of the human body — shows how quickly AI tools can erode human abilities. The physicians, who had all performed at least 2,000 colonoscopies during their careers, were given access to an AI system that analyses colonoscopy images in real time and flags a type of precancerous intestinal lesion called an adenoma. The tool was available to the specialists on some days but not on others.
Once physicians began using it, their performance dropped significantly whenever the system was unavailable. During the three-month period before the AI tool was introduced, the specialists found at least one adenoma during 28.4% of colonoscopies. During the three-month period after the tool was introduced, the adenoma detection rate for colonoscopies performed without AI assistance decreased to 22.4%.
Gastroenterology and Hepatology, suggest that even highly skilled professionals might get worse at tasks that their job requires as they become more dependent on AI tools, says Robert Wachter, a physician at the University of California, San Francisco, who is the author of a book on how AI tools are transforming health care. The study authors say that continuous exposure to such tools can cause clinicians to become “less motivated, less focused, and less responsible when making cognitive decisions without AI assistance”.
Co-author Yuichi Mori, a physician-researcher at the University of Oslo, says that more studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon. But people who use AI tools should be aware that they risk losing some of their skills, he adds. “There is no established solution against deskilling right now. It should be a very hot research topic in the next decade.”"
The actual preprint;
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2601.20245 -
@wandrecanada @remixtures very true, but then of course the real metric has been "number of adenomas *correctly* identified" all along. And, of course, false positives are not exclusive to AI.
My stance on AI has many nuances, but I am highly skeptical of the "it makes us stupid" narrative. What is lost in some aspects due to acquired reliance must be gained in other aspects through increased available headspace from strategic offloading.
@renardboy Imagine you're accustomed to foraging for food, but a scientist sticks you in a cage with a button that gives you food and water, and you quickly start relying on it. The door to the cage is opened behind you, but the button is still there, so you continue using it. It gives you a reward for minimal effort, and you are hooked. 1/3
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@renardboy Imagine you're accustomed to foraging for food, but a scientist sticks you in a cage with a button that gives you food and water, and you quickly start relying on it. The door to the cage is opened behind you, but the button is still there, so you continue using it. It gives you a reward for minimal effort, and you are hooked. 1/3
@renardboy Now, the dispenser starts periodically giving you food that makes you sick. Instead of going back to foraging, you start trying to determine if the food is good or not via smell, or outward appearance. You don't really understand the food, food pellets weren't something you foraged for, you don't know how they're made. Suddenly, the simple task of foraging is now "press button, decide if its safe to eat, or press button again", more effort is spent for less reward 2/3
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"A study of physicians in Poland who specialize in endoscopy — the use of flexible probes to examine the inside of the human body — shows how quickly AI tools can erode human abilities. The physicians, who had all performed at least 2,000 colonoscopies during their careers, were given access to an AI system that analyses colonoscopy images in real time and flags a type of precancerous intestinal lesion called an adenoma. The tool was available to the specialists on some days but not on others.
Once physicians began using it, their performance dropped significantly whenever the system was unavailable. During the three-month period before the AI tool was introduced, the specialists found at least one adenoma during 28.4% of colonoscopies. During the three-month period after the tool was introduced, the adenoma detection rate for colonoscopies performed without AI assistance decreased to 22.4%.
Gastroenterology and Hepatology, suggest that even highly skilled professionals might get worse at tasks that their job requires as they become more dependent on AI tools, says Robert Wachter, a physician at the University of California, San Francisco, who is the author of a book on how AI tools are transforming health care. The study authors say that continuous exposure to such tools can cause clinicians to become “less motivated, less focused, and less responsible when making cognitive decisions without AI assistance”.
Co-author Yuichi Mori, a physician-researcher at the University of Oslo, says that more studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon. But people who use AI tools should be aware that they risk losing some of their skills, he adds. “There is no established solution against deskilling right now. It should be a very hot research topic in the next decade.”"
In WWII The UK needed more plane spotters. Recruits were put in a class and shown the various shapes of planes but failed in the field. They were put in the field next to an experience spotter and they were told correct or incorrect. They learned quickly.
I believe that human brain needs this reinforcement. Once it relies on tools capacity to detect patterns quickly erodes.
I’d prefer clinicians to have their own diagnosis and AI only validates their findings.
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"A study of physicians in Poland who specialize in endoscopy — the use of flexible probes to examine the inside of the human body — shows how quickly AI tools can erode human abilities. The physicians, who had all performed at least 2,000 colonoscopies during their careers, were given access to an AI system that analyses colonoscopy images in real time and flags a type of precancerous intestinal lesion called an adenoma. The tool was available to the specialists on some days but not on others.
Once physicians began using it, their performance dropped significantly whenever the system was unavailable. During the three-month period before the AI tool was introduced, the specialists found at least one adenoma during 28.4% of colonoscopies. During the three-month period after the tool was introduced, the adenoma detection rate for colonoscopies performed without AI assistance decreased to 22.4%.
Gastroenterology and Hepatology, suggest that even highly skilled professionals might get worse at tasks that their job requires as they become more dependent on AI tools, says Robert Wachter, a physician at the University of California, San Francisco, who is the author of a book on how AI tools are transforming health care. The study authors say that continuous exposure to such tools can cause clinicians to become “less motivated, less focused, and less responsible when making cognitive decisions without AI assistance”.
Co-author Yuichi Mori, a physician-researcher at the University of Oslo, says that more studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon. But people who use AI tools should be aware that they risk losing some of their skills, he adds. “There is no established solution against deskilling right now. It should be a very hot research topic in the next decade.”"
@remixtures unfortunately this gives AI bros another tool to manipulate the narrative. The playbook for AI bros will be:
Compare AI productivity to post-AI productivity (rather than pre-AI productivity) to show how "necessary" it is for professionals to "be at their best"
We have to be prepared to counter that narrative, and talking about skill erosion is something.
Making that clear connection between skill erosion and limited/rescinded availability is key. AI will not always be cheap. In fact, it's more expensive even now that most people realize.
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@remixtures wow, apparently physicians are susceptible to the same issues with automation as pilots, nuclear power plant operators, airplane mechanics, operating engineers in general, train operators, drivers, and security guards. Shocking. I am shocked. Shocked that society's full of bros who believe anything different.
Yeah but “more studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon”
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"A study of physicians in Poland who specialize in endoscopy — the use of flexible probes to examine the inside of the human body — shows how quickly AI tools can erode human abilities. The physicians, who had all performed at least 2,000 colonoscopies during their careers, were given access to an AI system that analyses colonoscopy images in real time and flags a type of precancerous intestinal lesion called an adenoma. The tool was available to the specialists on some days but not on others.
Once physicians began using it, their performance dropped significantly whenever the system was unavailable. During the three-month period before the AI tool was introduced, the specialists found at least one adenoma during 28.4% of colonoscopies. During the three-month period after the tool was introduced, the adenoma detection rate for colonoscopies performed without AI assistance decreased to 22.4%.
Gastroenterology and Hepatology, suggest that even highly skilled professionals might get worse at tasks that their job requires as they become more dependent on AI tools, says Robert Wachter, a physician at the University of California, San Francisco, who is the author of a book on how AI tools are transforming health care. The study authors say that continuous exposure to such tools can cause clinicians to become “less motivated, less focused, and less responsible when making cognitive decisions without AI assistance”.
Co-author Yuichi Mori, a physician-researcher at the University of Oslo, says that more studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon. But people who use AI tools should be aware that they risk losing some of their skills, he adds. “There is no established solution against deskilling right now. It should be a very hot research topic in the next decade.”"
@remixtures These replies are unquestionably the most varied and interesting thoughts on AI / LLMs that I've seen concentrated.
- Deskilling or respecializing in management?
https://mastodon.social/@renardboy/116782980977029184
https://mas.to/@hopeless/116782907360104119
- Foraging for food replaced with determining if sky food is not lethal, preferring not to go back to foraging (among professionals).
https://mstdn.social/@caitp/116783194421510776- AI boom = dotcom bubble
- Skills not reinforced
https://mastodon.social/@michielw/116783214526961483
- Value, proving it
https://mastodon.social/@wandrecanada/116783029605465305 -
"A study of physicians in Poland who specialize in endoscopy — the use of flexible probes to examine the inside of the human body — shows how quickly AI tools can erode human abilities. The physicians, who had all performed at least 2,000 colonoscopies during their careers, were given access to an AI system that analyses colonoscopy images in real time and flags a type of precancerous intestinal lesion called an adenoma. The tool was available to the specialists on some days but not on others.
Once physicians began using it, their performance dropped significantly whenever the system was unavailable. During the three-month period before the AI tool was introduced, the specialists found at least one adenoma during 28.4% of colonoscopies. During the three-month period after the tool was introduced, the adenoma detection rate for colonoscopies performed without AI assistance decreased to 22.4%.
Gastroenterology and Hepatology, suggest that even highly skilled professionals might get worse at tasks that their job requires as they become more dependent on AI tools, says Robert Wachter, a physician at the University of California, San Francisco, who is the author of a book on how AI tools are transforming health care. The study authors say that continuous exposure to such tools can cause clinicians to become “less motivated, less focused, and less responsible when making cognitive decisions without AI assistance”.
Co-author Yuichi Mori, a physician-researcher at the University of Oslo, says that more studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon. But people who use AI tools should be aware that they risk losing some of their skills, he adds. “There is no established solution against deskilling right now. It should be a very hot research topic in the next decade.”"
@remixtures I've been a graphic designer my whole career, pretty much. It's long been observed, in fact my first boss told me on day *one*, that you need to stay "on the boards" and he regretted that he hadn't.
Skill fade is both real and much quicker than you think.
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"A study of physicians in Poland who specialize in endoscopy — the use of flexible probes to examine the inside of the human body — shows how quickly AI tools can erode human abilities. The physicians, who had all performed at least 2,000 colonoscopies during their careers, were given access to an AI system that analyses colonoscopy images in real time and flags a type of precancerous intestinal lesion called an adenoma. The tool was available to the specialists on some days but not on others.
Once physicians began using it, their performance dropped significantly whenever the system was unavailable. During the three-month period before the AI tool was introduced, the specialists found at least one adenoma during 28.4% of colonoscopies. During the three-month period after the tool was introduced, the adenoma detection rate for colonoscopies performed without AI assistance decreased to 22.4%.
Gastroenterology and Hepatology, suggest that even highly skilled professionals might get worse at tasks that their job requires as they become more dependent on AI tools, says Robert Wachter, a physician at the University of California, San Francisco, who is the author of a book on how AI tools are transforming health care. The study authors say that continuous exposure to such tools can cause clinicians to become “less motivated, less focused, and less responsible when making cognitive decisions without AI assistance”.
Co-author Yuichi Mori, a physician-researcher at the University of Oslo, says that more studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon. But people who use AI tools should be aware that they risk losing some of their skills, he adds. “There is no established solution against deskilling right now. It should be a very hot research topic in the next decade.”"
@remixtures
Taking this a step further, that when you stop doing things for yourself, you lose the ability to do it - what does that say about a certain class of people who have people do *everything* for them? -
@remixtures Yep, AI lets people become sort of lazy.
@Fitzibitz @remixtures Worse: whoever made the decision that AI be used, it then forces people to "become sort of lazy"
Then their boss, who made the decision, will pass the blame on to the people using it
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"A study of physicians in Poland who specialize in endoscopy — the use of flexible probes to examine the inside of the human body — shows how quickly AI tools can erode human abilities. The physicians, who had all performed at least 2,000 colonoscopies during their careers, were given access to an AI system that analyses colonoscopy images in real time and flags a type of precancerous intestinal lesion called an adenoma. The tool was available to the specialists on some days but not on others.
Once physicians began using it, their performance dropped significantly whenever the system was unavailable. During the three-month period before the AI tool was introduced, the specialists found at least one adenoma during 28.4% of colonoscopies. During the three-month period after the tool was introduced, the adenoma detection rate for colonoscopies performed without AI assistance decreased to 22.4%.
Gastroenterology and Hepatology, suggest that even highly skilled professionals might get worse at tasks that their job requires as they become more dependent on AI tools, says Robert Wachter, a physician at the University of California, San Francisco, who is the author of a book on how AI tools are transforming health care. The study authors say that continuous exposure to such tools can cause clinicians to become “less motivated, less focused, and less responsible when making cognitive decisions without AI assistance”.
Co-author Yuichi Mori, a physician-researcher at the University of Oslo, says that more studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon. But people who use AI tools should be aware that they risk losing some of their skills, he adds. “There is no established solution against deskilling right now. It should be a very hot research topic in the next decade.”"
@remixtures@tldr.nettime.org so apparently the main reason to use ’AI‘ is that it makes us more valuable to employers, but the main reason to not use ‘AI’ is that it makes us lose skills valuable to employers long-term. I’m not convinced by either of them.
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"A study of physicians in Poland who specialize in endoscopy — the use of flexible probes to examine the inside of the human body — shows how quickly AI tools can erode human abilities. The physicians, who had all performed at least 2,000 colonoscopies during their careers, were given access to an AI system that analyses colonoscopy images in real time and flags a type of precancerous intestinal lesion called an adenoma. The tool was available to the specialists on some days but not on others.
Once physicians began using it, their performance dropped significantly whenever the system was unavailable. During the three-month period before the AI tool was introduced, the specialists found at least one adenoma during 28.4% of colonoscopies. During the three-month period after the tool was introduced, the adenoma detection rate for colonoscopies performed without AI assistance decreased to 22.4%.
Gastroenterology and Hepatology, suggest that even highly skilled professionals might get worse at tasks that their job requires as they become more dependent on AI tools, says Robert Wachter, a physician at the University of California, San Francisco, who is the author of a book on how AI tools are transforming health care. The study authors say that continuous exposure to such tools can cause clinicians to become “less motivated, less focused, and less responsible when making cognitive decisions without AI assistance”.
Co-author Yuichi Mori, a physician-researcher at the University of Oslo, says that more studies are needed to confirm the phenomenon. But people who use AI tools should be aware that they risk losing some of their skills, he adds. “There is no established solution against deskilling right now. It should be a very hot research topic in the next decade.”"
"are Henry Ford's assembly lines de-skilling coach builders?"
same energy and despite my huge reservations about the current private ownership and direction of AI I'm feeling that lots of AI scepticism is missing the point. It's private ownership and capitalism that are the threats as usual, not technology.
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@remixtures wow, apparently physicians are susceptible to the same issues with automation as pilots, nuclear power plant operators, airplane mechanics, operating engineers in general, train operators, drivers, and security guards. Shocking. I am shocked. Shocked that society's full of bros who believe anything different.
@wronglang @remixtures thankfully programmers, politicians and CEOs aren’t susceptible to those, though. /s
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@remixtures No one will have the skills to conduct research on unskilling in a decade.
@BLTpizza @remixtures And when we are not looking, it is not there! Problem solved! /s
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@wandrecanada @remixtures very true, but then of course the real metric has been "number of adenomas *correctly* identified" all along. And, of course, false positives are not exclusive to AI.
My stance on AI has many nuances, but I am highly skeptical of the "it makes us stupid" narrative. What is lost in some aspects due to acquired reliance must be gained in other aspects through increased available headspace from strategic offloading.
@renardboy @wandrecanada @remixtures At least one issue is how we can continue to improve such machines if we lose the skill they’re automating.
