So, here's my defense plan for Canada.
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@siderea @skyfaller Absolutely possible and a fair point!
I suggested occupying low-population areas to put a lot of red on the map and attract military effort to those spots, so the war happens on US soil instead of Canadian soil.
That is probably not a great strategy from the American side, but I think popular opinion would insist on it.
It also gives something to negotiate over: you return southern Ontario, we return the Alaska panhandle or whatever.
@evan oh, definitely try to have the fighting on US soil. As to low population areas, Canada is going to need to strike at relevant US military bases, wherever they are.
You are speaking in anger and fear, which is understandable, but time has come, alas, for cold-eyed military pragmatism.
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@evan oh, definitely try to have the fighting on US soil. As to low population areas, Canada is going to need to strike at relevant US military bases, wherever they are.
You are speaking in anger and fear, which is understandable, but time has come, alas, for cold-eyed military pragmatism.
@siderea @skyfaller oh, I'm not angry! This is just a thought experiment, not a serious plan.
Like I said, I'm just a software developer, not a military planner. I was just wondering, if a war is coming, what would be the best ways to survive as a sovereign nation?
I think, as the much smaller nation, we'd need to use other advantages: territory, initiative, allies. Being passive probably wouldn't work, I think.
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@Tabby_Schaf I honestly don't know. Where do Russian dissidents go? I am pretty sure they don't try to cross the front lines into Ukraine.
@evan they have some more borders. But once they crossed they continue to flee by plane. If I were American, I would cross the border to Canads and the take a plane to Australia, New Zealand, evtl. Portugal, GB
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@siderea @skyfaller oh, I'm not angry! This is just a thought experiment, not a serious plan.
Like I said, I'm just a software developer, not a military planner. I was just wondering, if a war is coming, what would be the best ways to survive as a sovereign nation?
I think, as the much smaller nation, we'd need to use other advantages: territory, initiative, allies. Being passive probably wouldn't work, I think.
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@siderea @skyfaller Yeah, but that opens up a whole different can of worms. I think it's a lot harder for the US to break off a proxy war with China than it is to break off a war with its own NATO allies (ex-allies?). And popular support of a war against a Chinese proxy right on the US border would probably be much higher than for a costly war of conquest.
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4. Evacuate Canadian civilians from the border area; probably 300km or more. Yes, this is where most Canadians live.
5. Declare a security corridor of 300km on the other side of the border, in US territory. Any military activity in that area is a sign of imminent aggression and will prompt a defensive strike.
6. If anything occurs, surge forward and take territory. Keep any war on US soil, not in Canada.I guess this is called a "diversionary counterattack".
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@Tabby_Schaf I honestly don't know. Where do Russian dissidents go? I am pretty sure they don't try to cross the front lines into Ukraine.
@evan actually it's too late for them to flee. Initially they fled to Kazachstan, Georgia, Finland, Litauen, evtl. They could fly to Serbia or Turkey.
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@evan they have some more borders. But once they crossed they continue to flee by plane. If I were American, I would cross the border to Canads and the take a plane to Australia, New Zealand, evtl. Portugal, GB
@Tabby_Schaf well, I guess if there were a war going on on the Canadian border, you'd have to go to Mexico instead, and then fly from there.
It feels extreme to ask Canadians not to defend themselves from an invasion, so there's a convenient exit path for American emigrants? Am I misunderstanding the question?
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@evan actually it's too late for them to flee. Initially they fled to Kazachstan, Georgia, Finland, Litauen, evtl. They could fly to Serbia or Turkey.
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@evan @Tabby_Schaf As someone who would love to move to Canada (but can't right now due to family), I'm with you on this. If the US did invade Canada, it would be absolutely foolish for Americans to try to escape there - only to potentially be recaptured. A better plan is to stay put and sabotage/fight the fascists, or escape to a different country.
@Andres4NY @evan after invasion you have to close the border of course, this would be the frontline. But just now?
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@Tabby_Schaf well, I guess if there were a war going on on the Canadian border, you'd have to go to Mexico instead, and then fly from there.
It feels extreme to ask Canadians not to defend themselves from an invasion, so there's a convenient exit path for American emigrants? Am I misunderstanding the question?
@evan yes you misunderstood and eventually me too misunderstood: I thought you spoke of closing the border right now. In the moment of invasion you have to do.
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@Andres4NY @evan after invasion you have to close the border of course, this would be the frontline. But just now?
@Tabby_Schaf @Andres4NY Right. In this case, the US government gives confirmation that it intends to invade. That's when the border would be closed. So Canada could prepare to stop the invasion.
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@evan yes you misunderstood and eventually me too misunderstood: I thought you spoke of closing the border right now. In the moment of invasion you have to do.
@Tabby_Schaf also, in doing a little research, there are usually humanitarian corridors maintained for refugees and asylum seekers, sometimes maintained by international organizations. Apparently, even some political dissidents and other Russian refugees did go across the battle line into Ukraine!
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So, here's my defense plan for Canada. Basic philosophy: it is unsafe to wait for an attack.
1. Secure public confirmation from NATO that Article 5 applies even if the aggressor is also a NATO member.
2. Send an ultimatum to Washington demanding a public acknowledgement of Canadian sovereignty by the President and confirmation of non-aggression.
3. In the absence of that acknowledgement, sever diplomatic ties, close the borders, and embargo trade. Blow bridges, tear up roads and rail lines.4. Join forces with Denmark
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4. Evacuate Canadian civilians from the border area; probably 300km or more. Yes, this is where most Canadians live.
5. Declare a security corridor of 300km on the other side of the border, in US territory. Any military activity in that area is a sign of imminent aggression and will prompt a defensive strike.
6. If anything occurs, surge forward and take territory. Keep any war on US soil, not in Canada.@evan Where do we send 20 million people though? The suffering caused by that kind of an evacuation would be unimaginable as we don't have the infrastructure to handle that many - even one percent of that.
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4. Evacuate Canadian civilians from the border area; probably 300km or more. Yes, this is where most Canadians live.
5. Declare a security corridor of 300km on the other side of the border, in US territory. Any military activity in that area is a sign of imminent aggression and will prompt a defensive strike.
6. If anything occurs, surge forward and take territory. Keep any war on US soil, not in Canada. -
@evan Where do we send 20 million people though? The suffering caused by that kind of an evacuation would be unimaginable as we don't have the infrastructure to handle that many - even one percent of that.
@WTL overseas or north. The suffering of being in easily bombarded or invaded cities would be much worse.
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4. Join forces with Denmark
@mad Denmark is part of NATO.
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4. Evacuate Canadian civilians from the border area; probably 300km or more. Yes, this is where most Canadians live.
5. Declare a security corridor of 300km on the other side of the border, in US territory. Any military activity in that area is a sign of imminent aggression and will prompt a defensive strike.
6. If anything occurs, surge forward and take territory. Keep any war on US soil, not in Canada.@evan I'm sorry, I agree we need to have a strong plan, but pre-emptively invading the United States is, frankly, insane.
Nothing will more quickly galvanize Americans to believe Trump's lies about how we are soooo bad. Our vestigial armed forces are in no position to make such an effort. Salients are a nightmare to defend, even if forces are equal.
We would be carpet bombed to oblivion.
Abandoning cities just gives them free real estate. Lower home prices
!And nobody is going to help us.
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@evan number 4. Remove a couple of zeroes otherwise you'd have to evacuate Hamilton, Toronto, Ottawa, Montréal, and a whole lot of suburbs.
@Milnoc yes, that is entirely the point. The majority of the Canadian population is far too close to the border. We have to evacuate or we'll be entirely occupied within hours.
