everyone should realize that e-scooters are a physically risky form of transport, especially when driven above about 20km/h.
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@adub Excellent thread, although one point on this
you're riding something with no protection from the road or other road users apart from what you're wearing.
That could apply just as equally to bicycles or even motorcycles. I don't know about the laws across Canada, but here in the UK when wearing helmets on motorcyles was made compulsory in the 1970s there was a huge drop in the number of killed & seriously injured bike riders.
So the injury side of things on e-scooters is something that can be addressed, at least in theory, with legislation. The wider points around stability, however, well ye cannae change the laws of physics as a wise man once said.
@losttourist yup. if people would wear full face helmets on e-scooters that would eliminate a hefty fraction of the injury burden. bike helmets are designed differently, afaik more for the typical ways in which cyclists fall off. when i rode an e-scooter briefly i even wore wrist elbow and knee guards too.
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@catzilla @PapyrusBrigade @adub This charity, for whom I once raised money with (ofc) an adventurous bike ride, thinks the same way. https://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/
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bicycles have always struck physicists (e.g. me!) as almost miraculous. they are simultaneously:
• dynamically elegant,
• mechanically simple,
• energetically near-optimal, and
• extraordinarily cheap, as a conveyance.YES I DO LOVE BICYCLES. so should everyone, tbh.
with the added proviso that not everyone can ride a bicycle and that's OK. humanity will always need other transportation options. we just aren't anywhere close to bikemaxxing yet and we should be.
@adub bikes are also amazing vehicles for a lot of us with dynamic disabilities! Active transportation you can sit on, I frequently have to pedal with only one working leg when my health issues persist. Walking is very painful for me, but riding a bike helps a lot with my pain. I can also put a folding cane in my frame bag!
I love them!
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@catzilla @PapyrusBrigade @adub This charity, for whom I once raised money with (ofc) an adventurous bike ride, thinks the same way. https://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/
@publicwondering Wow! That website looks so great. I love that they seem to have info sessions in many places, and the pictures show a range of adaptive bikes.
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Once you understand how many elegant self-correcting mechanisms are built into a bicycle, it's hard not to appreciate that it's one of the most successful dynamically stable machines ever invented.
It's also the most thermodynamically efficient way to convey a human ever invented, among conveyances available to the general public, per person per kilometre.
@adub @Daveography the stability of a bicycle is an impressively rich study in dynamics. You can even take away trail and have a stable "bicycle", as in Koojiman et al. (2011) which is also an excellent review of the mechanics in detail (rather than the hand-wavy claims that tend to dominate the subject)
http://ruina.tam.cornell.edu/research/topics/bicycle_mechanics/stablebicycle/
The less-pithy version is: there are zones of stability and instability based on a lot of factors like most complex dynamical systems, and the bicycles we're familiar with just happen to have great big zones of stability, a combination of evolving design and plain old good luck.
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bicycles have always struck physicists (e.g. me!) as almost miraculous. they are simultaneously:
• dynamically elegant,
• mechanically simple,
• energetically near-optimal, and
• extraordinarily cheap, as a conveyance.YES I DO LOVE BICYCLES. so should everyone, tbh.
with the added proviso that not everyone can ride a bicycle and that's OK. humanity will always need other transportation options. we just aren't anywhere close to bikemaxxing yet and we should be.
@adub I'm frustrated by how much money we put into bikes. We could put that into decent transportation like a train or more buses! Things that don't involve showing up at work exhausted and sweaty and with horrible helmet hair, that don't become dangerous due to ice most of the year
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bicycles have always struck physicists (e.g. me!) as almost miraculous. they are simultaneously:
• dynamically elegant,
• mechanically simple,
• energetically near-optimal, and
• extraordinarily cheap, as a conveyance.YES I DO LOVE BICYCLES. so should everyone, tbh.
with the added proviso that not everyone can ride a bicycle and that's OK. humanity will always need other transportation options. we just aren't anywhere close to bikemaxxing yet and we should be.
@adub I was just listening to Terry Pratchett's "invention of railways" novel, in which there's a side note about some goblin inventing the bicycle. I wish we'd gotten another Discworld novel about that!
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*Why bicycles are surprisingly stable*
A common myth is that bicycle stability comes mainly from the spinning wheels acting as gyroscopes. Gyroscopic effects help, but they are actually not the dominant factor.
The major sources of bicycle stability are:
1. Steering geometry (trail)
• The front wheel naturally "falls into" a turn when the bike leans.
• This automatically steers the contact patch underneath the rider's centre of mass.
• The bike performs a kind of continuous self-correction.2. Large wheel diameter
• Large wheels roll smoothly over imperfections.
• Small steering disturbances produce gentler changes in direction.3. Long wheelbase
• Reduces sensitivity to perturbations.
• Creates slower, more manageable dynamics.4. Rider position
• The rider's mass is located relatively high and centred between the wheels.
• Subtle body movements can effectively influence balance.At speeds around 10-20 km/h, many bicycles are remarkably self-stabilizing. If you've ever seen a bicycle coast for a surprising distance riderless, that's evidence of these effects.
@adub 60 years ago my schoolmates and I discovered most of this by comparing the performance and roadholding of, for example, a 150cc motorbike and an equally powerful(?) Vespa or Lambretta scooter. Scooters looked cool but didn't handle bumpy corners well.
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@adub I'm frustrated by how much money we put into bikes. We could put that into decent transportation like a train or more buses! Things that don't involve showing up at work exhausted and sweaty and with horrible helmet hair, that don't become dangerous due to ice most of the year
@Canageek it's not a case of either or. we can have both and.
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@hamishb agreed. i've even wondered about getting my next bike with shocks because of all the potholes and utility cuts
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@adub 60 years ago my schoolmates and I discovered most of this by comparing the performance and roadholding of, for example, a 150cc motorbike and an equally powerful(?) Vespa or Lambretta scooter. Scooters looked cool but didn't handle bumpy corners well.
@pthane by e-scooters here i'm referring to these
(with battery) rather than these 
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@adub I'm frustrated by how much money we put into bikes. We could put that into decent transportation like a train or more buses! Things that don't involve showing up at work exhausted and sweaty and with horrible helmet hair, that don't become dangerous due to ice most of the year
@Canageek @adub well getting your employer to invest in bike storage, showers and changing rooms does help.
And you won't get any more sweaty than riding a london tube, less so if you take it at an easy ride and not too far - wind of passage when riding a bike is pretty efficent at cooling you. If you do more or faster then at least you are getting exercise.Dislaimer: I used to cycle 7 miles there and the same back when I commuted in London. But, yes I had use of showers, etc.
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@Canageek @adub well getting your employer to invest in bike storage, showers and changing rooms does help.
And you won't get any more sweaty than riding a london tube, less so if you take it at an easy ride and not too far - wind of passage when riding a bike is pretty efficent at cooling you. If you do more or faster then at least you are getting exercise.Dislaimer: I used to cycle 7 miles there and the same back when I commuted in London. But, yes I had use of showers, etc.
@marjolica @adub I work at a new first. we have all that, it's still sucks. I means I get to work sore, and I'm dripping wet for the start of the day.
When I was in my twenties there was a situation where the only way I could get to work was biking, and by the end of the week I was so sore every week. I couldn't do anything all weekend until Sunday afternoon.
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@marjolica @adub I work at a new first. we have all that, it's still sucks. I means I get to work sore, and I'm dripping wet for the start of the day.
When I was in my twenties there was a situation where the only way I could get to work was biking, and by the end of the week I was so sore every week. I couldn't do anything all weekend until Sunday afternoon.
@marjolica @adub I tried again in my mid-thirties, just biking for kilometer between two buildings that I work at. After the third time I crashed the bike (into a thorn bush) I gave up and just have walked between them or taking the bus everyday since.
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@Canageek it's not a case of either or. we can have both and.
@adub Yes, it is, municipal budgets are a zero-sum game. If you spend money on bike lanes, you don't have that money to put it into buses.
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Once you understand how many elegant self-correcting mechanisms are built into a bicycle, it's hard not to appreciate that it's one of the most successful dynamically stable machines ever invented.
It's also the most thermodynamically efficient way to convey a human ever invented, among conveyances available to the general public, per person per kilometre.
@adub I’ve always thought it’s paradoxical that most scooter wheels have too small diameter and most bicycle wheels have too large diameter.
A couple of years ago I made the switch to a cargo bike with 20” wheels and couldn’t be happier.
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why do you think e-scooters are still illegal on roads in most areas of this province? it isn't because regulators are stick-in-the-muds. it's because there's a big injury burden associated to these things.
for starters, you're riding something with no protection from the road or other road users apart from what you're wearing.
and most importantly, e-scooters are nowhere near as inherently stable as bicycles are.
@adub@beige.party e-bikes also exist and they're freaking awesome
I just wish that taking a bike on public transit wasn't so expensive where I live (as much as buying a second ticket in some cases) -
bicycles have always struck physicists (e.g. me!) as almost miraculous. they are simultaneously:
• dynamically elegant,
• mechanically simple,
• energetically near-optimal, and
• extraordinarily cheap, as a conveyance.YES I DO LOVE BICYCLES. so should everyone, tbh.
with the added proviso that not everyone can ride a bicycle and that's OK. humanity will always need other transportation options. we just aren't anywhere close to bikemaxxing yet and we should be.
@adub I'm a fan of (unmotorized) kick scooters too. It's easier to trip on them than on a bike, but as you're already in a standing position you'll often be able to run the momentum off or just scrape the knee when falling, versus falling much farther and in a less advantageous position on a bicycle.
Also here in Germany, kick scooters count as free hand luggage on most buses and trains, whereas bicycles have restrictions during rush hour and require a whole second ticket just for the bike. And e-scooters have been banned completely by many local transit operators because a few shit-quality ones went up in flames and there's apparently no reliable safety certification system to allow specifically safe quality scooters. -
@PapyrusBrigade agreed, tighter e-bike battery safety regulations are sorely needed - so says the Toronto Fire Chief
@adub @PapyrusBrigade So says pretty much anyone that understands the physics and chemistry of lithium batteries and the reality of unregulated batteries.
Lithium batteries are dangerous as hell, and need solid regulation and certification.
Fire safety regulations in homes and businesses were written in the blood of a century of fire victims - fire is no joke.
We can't let our desire for cheap batteries impact safety or reduce regulation.
For the record, I like ebikes.
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@rupert That's a great mental image!
