I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer.
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit @Flux My partner is very much not a computer person, but is exceptionally intelligent; physician and teacher, among other things. Every few months she asks me for help with something that ought to be super basic—things like “how do i copy a file from here to here”—and I have no idea. I have to figure it out all over again because it’s changed, inscrutably, since the last time we had to figure it out. She largely blames her self and I get angry ob her behalf.
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@jalefkowit @Flux My partner is very much not a computer person, but is exceptionally intelligent; physician and teacher, among other things. Every few months she asks me for help with something that ought to be super basic—things like “how do i copy a file from here to here”—and I have no idea. I have to figure it out all over again because it’s changed, inscrutably, since the last time we had to figure it out. She largely blames her self and I get angry ob her behalf.
@jalefkowit @Flux Computers were harder to use in the past in the sense of having a steeper learning curve. But once you knew how to use `cp` it never friggin’ changed. It was a steeper learning curve but there was mastery at the end. A relative plateau of actual skill. Not an endless gradual treadmill of pointless changes and re-learning the basics.
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This is a similar argument I've seen explained in a video about video game UI/mechanics.
It's all made by people in-the-know, who can't really put themselves in the shoes of someone who has never heard of the thing, and thinks a quick "you just click here and voilá!" is enough.
I had to take "PC" (really, DOS and Windows 3.1) classes when I got my first computer. I was terrified of doing something wrong and it'd make the computer explode.
I try to always keep that in mind.
@fruitcakesareyum @jalefkowit i feel like i cant effectively help people with computer issues anymore for a similar reason, ive been marinating in it for so long that i cant put myself in the shoes of a beginner anymore and dont know how to explain anything to someone with sufficiently different experience, even other IT workers who are in different parts of tech
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@imcdowall @jalefkowit This is absolutely not why things suck.
The incentives of capitalism are towards Dark Patterns and systems that lie to you.
@ajroach42 @imcdowall @jalefkowit i can deal with normal well-meaning incompetance, but needing to be on the constant defence against Dark Patterns is exhausting and toxic
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Someone posted a reply saying that computers were harder in the past so it's fine they're hard now, which earned them an instant block. Thanks for identifying yourself as the kind of person I want nothing to do with
@jalefkowit you sound like a massive fuckwit cunt.
(Feel free to block me too!)
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
Prefer paper to computers. Carbon copies too. A party line to email or chat. Computers suck the life out of everything. Can't live without em or with em but life was better all around before them.
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@jalefkowit @Flux Computers were harder to use in the past in the sense of having a steeper learning curve. But once you knew how to use `cp` it never friggin’ changed. It was a steeper learning curve but there was mastery at the end. A relative plateau of actual skill. Not an endless gradual treadmill of pointless changes and re-learning the basics.
@a @jalefkowit @Flux I am not necessarily going to go with "harder to use"; yes, a command line is some effectively arbitrary stuff to memorize but it's not that much stuff. It's possible to memorize. "Where, in seven levels of menus, is the switch to make that thing possible" is not possible to memorize with the same level of effort even if it was any kind of stable.
And so much of it is purely appearance, there's no functional substance to it, it's just sitting there being a source of bugs.
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit They only care about profit and surveillance to train the AI models.
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As well as now being elderly, Mum is dyslexic and she's got a lifetime of suffering from male sexism, where men make her feel stupid for not being as good at a technical thing as she is.
There's sometimes where my partner and I (both female) can get Mum to do stuff or listen where no man can, cos she's not tensed-up for the expected sexism and sneering (or obvious THINKING sneering thoughts badly suppressed).
Glad your neighbour has you. It's not easy.
@NatalyaD @jalefkowit @jtonline I'm at a point where I'm wondering whether it might be beneficial to put Mint on my 2011 MacBook, and give it to MiL.
She already uses Firefox, so all I'd need is to make sure that's prominent and available and signed in to her account. We'll be able to remote into it if anything does awry, and I can run software updates in the background.
It has no battery, but she never moves her current laptop anyway. And it'll be a damn sight more stable than the budget Windows laptop she currently has.
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@jalefkowit I'm at the stage now where I'm starting to think that giving someone a 20 minute primer on Linux then letting them get on eith it has to be easier than constantly fighting with their firewall, antiviral, and shifty OS every week.
Personally, ive found several problems with Win11 recently that require opening Powershell as admin just to do something that used to take a couple of clicks with a mouse - something that the Windows evangelists always said was stopping people moving to Linux.
I'm now seriously considering a 2nd SSD for dual booting into something, possibly Mint.@mancavgeek @jalefkowit https://aus.social/@stib/116117883536605111 ... Anecdotal data on your assumption being correct
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Someone posted a reply saying that computers were harder in the past so it's fine they're hard now, which earned them an instant block. Thanks for identifying yourself as the kind of person I want nothing to do with
@jalefkowit computers were harder in the past?? Maybe in the 1980s when you had to use DOS (or whatever the name was) to run games.. From the first windows it was piece of cake and just working.. Much much better than the dreaded Win11..
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit At the risk of Beetlejuicing xkcd, people who have been “doing computers” for a long time vastly overestimate how familiar people are with computers, even when they attempt to “dumb it down” for the masses. AFFORDANCES ARE STILL IMPORTANT.
People do NOT know what that icon means. They do NOT know that thing is interactable. They do NOT know they can edge-swipe. They do NOT know they can long-press.
Worse, YOUNG people who are “doing computers” underestimate the degradation of eyesight, swiftness, and motor control that is built into the aging process. Any operation that requires fine motor control, eagle eyes, and rock-steady hands with nimble fingers is hostile.
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@jalefkowit Really?
Wanna go back to fucking around with IRQs and config.sys?
Installing Windows 3.1 from floppy disks?
Removing and re-adding TCP/IP from your dialup adapter in Windows 95 every week?
Screwing around with BBSs and BTX?
Getting printer drivers delivered by snail mail?
Bluescreens on a daily basis?
Reading the 300 page manual for Word Perfect?
All without Google?I think measured by the possibilities a modern system delivers it has become incredibly easy to use.
@thechris @jalefkowit
Nah, just install Linux.(Someone had to say it)
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@jalefkowit Not computers per se, but as an example of usability improvements that got ruthlessly killed off by the dominant players - BlackBerry Hub: I've had to get someone off a BlackBerry 10 device when they were shutting down services for it and the most painful part was reintroducing them to the concept of "your messages live in several different apps". And then "most of them also try to silo you in by making it harder or impossible to forward things elsewhere".
@HaTetsu i still miss BB10, the messages living in one place and all being searchable was fantastic
my mailbox is still named hub over a decade later to save me having to tweak my muscle memory
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@jalefkowit At the risk of Beetlejuicing xkcd, people who have been “doing computers” for a long time vastly overestimate how familiar people are with computers, even when they attempt to “dumb it down” for the masses. AFFORDANCES ARE STILL IMPORTANT.
People do NOT know what that icon means. They do NOT know that thing is interactable. They do NOT know they can edge-swipe. They do NOT know they can long-press.
Worse, YOUNG people who are “doing computers” underestimate the degradation of eyesight, swiftness, and motor control that is built into the aging process. Any operation that requires fine motor control, eagle eyes, and rock-steady hands with nimble fingers is hostile.
@drahardja @jalefkowit I came across someone who didn't know what "web browser" meant, but she did know the phone's icon she needed to press to go on the internet. Another person I came across wanted to know how I was moving the pointer around the screen. Computers are very complex these days, starting from scratch is a long learner curve.
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@drahardja @jalefkowit I came across someone who didn't know what "web browser" meant, but she did know the phone's icon she needed to press to go on the internet. Another person I came across wanted to know how I was moving the pointer around the screen. Computers are very complex these days, starting from scratch is a long learner curve.
@jtb @jalefkowit Indeed. I met someone who never used anything but their phone, and they were completely lost on a trackpad-based laptop with no touchscreen. They kept poking the screen, then poking the trackpad assuming absolute positioning. They had no idea what the pointer was, or how to “drag” anything.
It dawned on me that we no longer have any onboarding training or truly basic affordances for people who had never used a trackpad or mouse with a pointer before, which with the explosion of touchscreen mobile devices these days, must be a HUGE number of people.
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@jtb @jalefkowit Indeed. I met someone who never used anything but their phone, and they were completely lost on a trackpad-based laptop with no touchscreen. They kept poking the screen, then poking the trackpad assuming absolute positioning. They had no idea what the pointer was, or how to “drag” anything.
It dawned on me that we no longer have any onboarding training or truly basic affordances for people who had never used a trackpad or mouse with a pointer before, which with the explosion of touchscreen mobile devices these days, must be a HUGE number of people.
@drahardja @jalefkowit Someone who had never had a computer, but had used one, asked me if when he bought one it would come with a manual. I naively thought he meant how to set it up, which is all manuals tell you these days, but he wanted a manual on how to use it. We take it for granted these day that you ask the internet how to do things. But there was a time when there were many books in the library on how to use computers.
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I occasionally help an elderly neighbor get stuff done with their computer. And every single time, I walk away in incandescent rage at how hard we have made this stuff for people who have not spent their entire waking lives marinating in it
@jalefkowit so true. I never was too aware of this until I started coaching people with basic online skills. Computers (esp windows!) and the internet have become so very hostile to new users. In the past things were difficult in other ways, but then we did not have the cookie walls, advertisements, confusing popups and notifications, the different OS ecosystems, AI, etc etc.
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@mancavgeek @jalefkowit https://aus.social/@stib/116117883536605111 ... Anecdotal data on your assumption being correct
@mainec Crikey!
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@NatalyaD @jalefkowit @DJDarren UIs randomly changing is a huge thing!
@jtonline @NatalyaD @jalefkowit @DJDarren it's driven by marketing Apple's pointless Liquid Ass being a case in point.
