HEY.
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My apologies for the ask:
What's the right starting point for reading Ostrom's work? Her 1990 "Governing the Commons" paper, or do I need to go further back than that?
@vocumsineratio @PsyChuan the start and end of the books might be a bit thick in economic modelling, and might feel offputting. But after the first chapter, it's just practical examples after practical examples that are quite fascinating.
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HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
@PsyChuan The tragedy of the commons is absolutely real and a real problem. There are milions of exsmples.
It is the capitalist solution to it that is bulshit. -
@PsyChuan I think there are two ways to view that term:
(A): "you can trust citizens with free stuff"
(B): "you can't trust corporations with free stuff"(A) is used to argue against public transport, welfare, healthcare system, affordable housing and the terrible belief that monetizing everything is a solution to fairly distribute resources.
But (B) is just the observation of corporate greed.
@dalius_berger @PsyChuan there was a controversy in the Republic of Ireland because water was unmetered and free so OBVIOUSLY people were squandering it.
A coalition including the Green Party began to roll out metering and set up a utility to charge people. It got massive popular resistance and was ultimately defeated, but the meters did go in.
When the dust settled it turned out Irish people used less water on average than the metered, privatised. UK.
Metering did help find leaks though.
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@dalius_berger @PsyChuan there was a controversy in the Republic of Ireland because water was unmetered and free so OBVIOUSLY people were squandering it.
A coalition including the Green Party began to roll out metering and set up a utility to charge people. It got massive popular resistance and was ultimately defeated, but the meters did go in.
When the dust settled it turned out Irish people used less water on average than the metered, privatised. UK.
Metering did help find leaks though.
The biggest problem really was that the water infrastructure had been let degrade to the point where about 60% of treated water was leaking into the ground.
This was happening both sides of domestic boundaries.
But not only was introducing charges political suicide during austerity, the paternalistic attitude to the public was just that, and people weren't overusing water just because they could.
The current biggest issue is malfunctioning toilets, I believe.
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HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
@PsyChuan It's usually cited as an issue with socialised resources where maintenance of that resource has been left up to individuals operating under capitalism, rather than also socialising the maintenance of the shared resource.
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HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
@PsyChuan there's also two different ways to apply the idea! There's the way it's commonly employed as a "gotcha" for lefties where you say "see it's impossible to hold things in common" and then there's the more abstract application of "small harms which are insignificant at an individual scale can become a big problem when an entire society is doing it"
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@PsyChuan there's also two different ways to apply the idea! There's the way it's commonly employed as a "gotcha" for lefties where you say "see it's impossible to hold things in common" and then there's the more abstract application of "small harms which are insignificant at an individual scale can become a big problem when an entire society is doing it"
@PsyChuan in both cases the solution is to coordinate. who knew
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@SallyStrange @PsyChuan Yeah, I feel like that's the tragedy itself. Someone DID come along and steal the commons. And then justified it with the theory. But it did happen.
One of those paradoxical thoughts.
@corbden @SallyStrange @PsyChuan
Basically, the tragedy of the commons is elite panic? -
@corbden @SallyStrange @PsyChuan
Basically, the tragedy of the commons is elite panic? -
HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
@PsyChuan I hereby put forward that we do not differentiate between author and ouvre when it comes to research and science. Assholes breed asshole ideas.
-
HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
millions of years.
Private Property of land is the newest, shortest and most dysfuntional concept in the history of humankind -
@PsyChuan@plush.city they're telling on themselves
-
HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
@PsyChuan Common ownership can work, just like you can get an agreed optimal Prisoners Dilemma. However, even without enclosure by some external actor (such as occurred in the Scottish highlands), it can end in a tragegic outcome. A clear example is in our repeated failures in different fisheries to agree to manage fish stocks sustainably.
-
HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
@PsyChuan The commons worked because everyone was taking from it as much as they personally needed.
It fails when someone builds a factory next to the commons and is obliged to maximise their extraction to meet shareholder targets.
-
HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
@PsyChuan caverate, its only bullshit if you live outside capitalism. From inside the current mess it is still badly relevant.
We need social composting
-
The biggest problem really was that the water infrastructure had been let degrade to the point where about 60% of treated water was leaking into the ground.
This was happening both sides of domestic boundaries.
But not only was introducing charges political suicide during austerity, the paternalistic attitude to the public was just that, and people weren't overusing water just because they could.
The current biggest issue is malfunctioning toilets, I believe.
@davey_cakes @dalius_berger @PsyChuan Yes, and many modern toilets have leaky valves that mean you have to replace the entire flush unit because either it's a sealed unit or the particular size and design of valve is no longer available. The older toilets, whilst using more water, tended to be easier to fix
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@dalius_berger @PsyChuan there was a controversy in the Republic of Ireland because water was unmetered and free so OBVIOUSLY people were squandering it.
A coalition including the Green Party began to roll out metering and set up a utility to charge people. It got massive popular resistance and was ultimately defeated, but the meters did go in.
When the dust settled it turned out Irish people used less water on average than the metered, privatised. UK.
Metering did help find leaks though.
@davey_cakes @dalius_berger @PsyChuan Amazing story, thank you for sharing!
Can you share some further readings so that I can read more about this?
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@PsyChuan caverate, its only bullshit if you live outside capitalism. From inside the current mess it is still badly relevant.
We need social composting
@witchescauldron @PsyChuan You CAN have some forms of capitalism whilst still regulating the commons for everyone's benefit, I believe. But it does need restraint and legal restriction to do so. Personally, I would probably prefer Capitalism as we have it now to be dismantled, but there doesn't appear to be enough people to agree with me, so we might have to work on the legal and practical regulation.
-
HEY.
whenever someone comes at you, a leftie, about the "tragedy of the commons," just remember:
- Elinor Ostrom won a goddamn Nobel Prize in Economics for pointing out that it was a bullshit idea.
- the commons worked as a concept for hundreds of years until the land was Inclosed.
- the dude that named the concept, Garrett Hardin, was literally a eugenicist and believed that letting people starve to death was a good form of population control.
thank you for this clear & concise summary
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@matildalove @0x4d6165 @PsyChuan that's exactly it - it's a threat, not an explanation of any kind.
