things this post does:1.
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@onepict thanks for the read by the way, it was very insightful. haven't thought of that comparison before but it makes a ton of sense.
@Yuvalne thanks for taking the time to read it.
But the only reason that post exists in the first place is because my project turned down the LLM help from someone who really likes and uses LLMs.
Their reaction and the personal example is what put me in mind of my twenties. Tech does have a consent issue.
It's not hard for a project to say no.
There is definitely an element of "but he does good work" in these projects that accept the fascist or other forms of abusive people.
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@risjlala @mkyral
from #KDE's own manifesto https://manifesto.kde.org/:We are a community of technologists, designers, writers and advocates who work to ensure freedom for all people through our software. Because of this work we have come to value:
- Open Governance;
- Free Software;
- Inclusivity;
- Innovation;
- Common Ownership;
- End-User Focus.so yeah, KDE considers itself a community. so did i. i no longer do.
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@mkyral @risjlala even assuming that is the correct interpretation (i don't think it is), what makes you think the people who signed kdeforpeople.com can only be classified as "end users"?
i am for example a tester. i'm also a funder. i'm a technologist, and i'm very much an advocate.
can signing a petition be called anything less than "advocating"? that applies to every single signer.you wrote in another comment that KDE isn't a community project but a software project. i agree. that's bad.
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@mkyral @risjlala even assuming that is the correct interpretation (i don't think it is), what makes you think the people who signed kdeforpeople.com can only be classified as "end users"?
i am for example a tester. i'm also a funder. i'm a technologist, and i'm very much an advocate.
can signing a petition be called anything less than "advocating"? that applies to every single signer.you wrote in another comment that KDE isn't a community project but a software project. i agree. that's bad.
Petition on kdeforpeople.com is equal to user request. There could be another petition requesting adopting LLM proposal as is and another petition requesting accepting any LLM commit
️ Depends on "community of KDE developers and other KDE authors" what they agree to choose.
KDE is Open Source software and it is not bad. It is a fact.
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Petition on kdeforpeople.com is equal to user request. There could be another petition requesting adopting LLM proposal as is and another petition requesting accepting any LLM commit
️ Depends on "community of KDE developers and other KDE authors" what they agree to choose.
KDE is Open Source software and it is not bad. It is a fact.
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@Yuvalne thanks for taking the time to read it.
But the only reason that post exists in the first place is because my project turned down the LLM help from someone who really likes and uses LLMs.
Their reaction and the personal example is what put me in mind of my twenties. Tech does have a consent issue.
It's not hard for a project to say no.
There is definitely an element of "but he does good work" in these projects that accept the fascist or other forms of abusive people.
The Scolds Bridle is relevant as well thinking about it in context with Nates post and how he characterises the kdeforpeople.com website:
"It's the need to shame the shamers because you felt scolded. We harshed your buzz and goodness, don't you just want to make us pay for it so we never do it again."
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The Scolds Bridle is relevant as well thinking about it in context with Nates post and how he characterises the kdeforpeople.com website:
"It's the need to shame the shamers because you felt scolded. We harshed your buzz and goodness, don't you just want to make us pay for it so we never do it again."
@onepict another great read, thanks again! really i just need to add your blog to my RSS reader it seems.
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@onepict another great read, thanks again! really i just need to add your blog to my RSS reader it seems.
@onepict also it's not .org but .com. i know because i nearly made that mistake myself a few times.
i guess .org domains are quite expensive. -
@onepict also it's not .org but .com. i know because i nearly made that mistake myself a few times.
i guess .org domains are quite expensive.@Yuvalne I shall update that toot.
.org really shouldn't be that expensive and I wish that registry wasn't held by the owners.
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@onepict another great read, thanks again! really i just need to add your blog to my RSS reader it seems.
@Yuvalne I promise I don't update it too much.
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RE: https://floss.social/@kde/117322549131682125
things this post does:
1. place the blame on the KDE community
2. dismiss kdeforpeople.com as an external pressure group
3. dismiss opinions of non-direct contributors as irrelevantthings this post doesn't do:
1. apologise
2. mention that the person who escalated this shitstorm was a literal nazi
3. call the pro-AI presentation a pressure campaign like it did with kdeforpeople.com
4. make literally any lessons for the future
5. apologise!!i no longer consider #KDE a community project.
@Yuvalne
Wow, good job #KDE at proving my assumptions that you don't care.https://mastodon.social/@dzwiedziu/117311625320802919
This is almost literally saying “this job would be perfect, if it weren't for the users”.
Also the author mentions the harms “AI” does and then goes on “but it's good for some people”.
Like, what we're even doing here?
(Maybe I should just post this under that quoted post and light up the @davidgerard signal?)
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@Yuvalne As one of those folks who signed. I did so as an active user of KDE on Debian.
I signed it as I wanted to make it clear that as an indicator of consent. I don't.
More user communities should.
I'm going to have to figure out a new Desktop environment when I rebuild my machine. DE and packages become popular because folks install them and gosh, become users of your stuff.
I don't know why this is so hard for the Devs to understand.
@onepict
I first I thought this is about a nazi at a bar, but putdown artist works very well.(Personal on PUAs: I have a personal beef with PUAs, as I got entangled by them years ago, when I was younger, didn't went far, but fucked up my love life anyway.)
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Wikipedia is a community project, OpenStreetMap is a community project.
KDE is Open Source Software.
There are users around KDE, but not all are part of the KDE users community. Many of them does not care about development if all works as they like.
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@dzwiedziu @Yuvalne There's always a way back.
I'm glad you were able to recognise the harm to you and to others.
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@dzwiedziu @Yuvalne As a KDE user since 0.98, as a OpenStreetMap contributor since 2013, as a developer who does not like LLM, I care.
But I also understood how OSS projects works and I understood that LLM is and will be there. And it is only on developers how they set rules. Unfortunately constructive discussion was ruined by several aggressive people
️ And this is not OK. -
@dzwiedziu @Yuvalne As a KDE user since 0.98, as a OpenStreetMap contributor since 2013, as a developer who does not like LLM, I care.
But I also understood how OSS projects works and I understood that LLM is and will be there. And it is only on developers how they set rules. Unfortunately constructive discussion was ruined by several aggressive people
️ And this is not OK.@mkyral
> (…) I understood that LLM is and will be there.https://pivot-to-ai.com/2025/07/10/ai-is-here-to-stay-is-it-though-what-do-you-mean-stay/
> And it is only on developers how they set rules.
So the developers don't care about the users (again!)
> Unfortunately constructive discussion was ruined by several aggressive people
️ And this is not OKNo, it is not okay.
But locking the rest of the community out the discussion looks like “not caring”.
There are moderation tools for this, FFS!
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RE: https://floss.social/@kde/117322549131682125
things this post does:
1. place the blame on the KDE community
2. dismiss kdeforpeople.com as an external pressure group
3. dismiss opinions of non-direct contributors as irrelevantthings this post doesn't do:
1. apologise
2. mention that the person who escalated this shitstorm was a literal nazi
3. call the pro-AI presentation a pressure campaign like it did with kdeforpeople.com
4. make literally any lessons for the future
5. apologise!!i no longer consider #KDE a community project.
@Yuvalne
I imagine you've seen the famous presentation, and haven't formed an opinion merely based on the title? -
RE: https://floss.social/@kde/117322549131682125
things this post does:
1. place the blame on the KDE community
2. dismiss kdeforpeople.com as an external pressure group
3. dismiss opinions of non-direct contributors as irrelevantthings this post doesn't do:
1. apologise
2. mention that the person who escalated this shitstorm was a literal nazi
3. call the pro-AI presentation a pressure campaign like it did with kdeforpeople.com
4. make literally any lessons for the future
5. apologise!!i no longer consider #KDE a community project.
@Yuvalne it seems to be a pattern that Open Source projects "test the water" with this stuff, and then when they don't like the response the responsible parties just go "Fuck the water and everyone in it, this isn't for their benefit anyway"
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@mkyral
> (…) I understood that LLM is and will be there.https://pivot-to-ai.com/2025/07/10/ai-is-here-to-stay-is-it-though-what-do-you-mean-stay/
> And it is only on developers how they set rules.
So the developers don't care about the users (again!)
> Unfortunately constructive discussion was ruined by several aggressive people
️ And this is not OKNo, it is not okay.
But locking the rest of the community out the discussion looks like “not caring”.
There are moderation tools for this, FFS!
@dzwiedziu @Yuvalne I already mentioned this above…
https://mamutovo.cz/@mkyral/117324801694986398
And also there is a big group of users that did not stepped into discussion yet because they don't care about development process but only if they like the result.
Also sentence:
"So the developers don't care about the users (again!)"
is not true - these users are loud, but definitive does not represent all users. E.g. they don't represent me.
