The #vegetarian and #vegan choices in the supermarket are so much more elaborate than ever before.
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@Veggie @pelle vegetarian is increasing the amount of torture. Dairy is a lot more cruel than 'only' killing for meat. They get killed anyway, vegetarian Just refuse to eat the flesh. Amd many studies show that reducing meat increases the use of dairy & eggs.
So vegetarian is just omni for concious, like if close my eyes, you don't see me. If I don't see corpses they don't exist.
But they do. Every egg is a dead chick, every cheese a dead calf, every yoghurt a dead cow.
@Seitansbraten @Veggie @pelle vegetarian at work, vegan at home here: I get your point that the cow’s gonna get slaughtered anyway and the calf’s not too happy about the deal either. But don’t we get a lot more food out of one milk cow than having the animals just for eating? I am aware that I’m only quibbling about the amount of torture, but I live in French cultural circles, the idea of just having a bit of beans or tofu hasn’t arrived in the industrial zone restaurants yet.
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@Seitansbraten @Veggie @pelle vegetarian at work, vegan at home here: I get your point that the cow’s gonna get slaughtered anyway and the calf’s not too happy about the deal either. But don’t we get a lot more food out of one milk cow than having the animals just for eating? I am aware that I’m only quibbling about the amount of torture, but I live in French cultural circles, the idea of just having a bit of beans or tofu hasn’t arrived in the industrial zone restaurants yet.
@Seitansbraten @Veggie @pelle all this to say: I *think* I’m choosing the lesser evil with a goat cheese salad than a steak, but maybe I should just give up?
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@Seitansbraten @Veggie @pelle all this to say: I *think* I’m choosing the lesser evil with a goat cheese salad than a steak, but maybe I should just give up?
@sebug yes, please give up the goat cheese and choose plants instead of harming animals.
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@Seitansbraten @Veggie @pelle vegetarian at work, vegan at home here: I get your point that the cow’s gonna get slaughtered anyway and the calf’s not too happy about the deal either. But don’t we get a lot more food out of one milk cow than having the animals just for eating? I am aware that I’m only quibbling about the amount of torture, but I live in French cultural circles, the idea of just having a bit of beans or tofu hasn’t arrived in the industrial zone restaurants yet.
yes, @sebug,
you are entirely correct: slave-owners can extract more value from their slaves if they also rape them, and then kidnap their children after birth, and finally take their breast milk.(cows, like humans and other mammals, produce milk to their children only after giving birth)
but you see the issue in that, right?
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I quit eating meat in 2005, which for me was a big change in eating habits (especially since I used to be really picky with food).
That change was my own choice, not because someone told me I was doing wrong. I believe people need to make that decision for themselves, step by step, at their own pace, with the right encouragement. It’s a learning process that takes courage and requires old habits to be pushed aside. Sometimes it’s easy to forget the process we’ve gone through ourselves and then be quick to judge others. Not everyone is ready to make a full shift completely, it can be gradual, and that’s perfectly okay.
I don’t think advocates should shut up, in fact, I said that your opinion matters too. I think I have been pretty reasonable in trying to understand your point of view, while also trying to explain mine to you, which is also valid.
I don’t see myself as promoting animal products, but rather offering alternative eating styles with vegetarian and mostly vegan options for people who are open to it and maybe just starting their journey. -
yes, @sebug,
you are entirely correct: slave-owners can extract more value from their slaves if they also rape them, and then kidnap their children after birth, and finally take their breast milk.(cows, like humans and other mammals, produce milk to their children only after giving birth)
but you see the issue in that, right?
@pelle I see that a lesser evil is still an evil. What I am interrogating is whether it is a lesser evil. Because animals are going to get hurt until everybody is on board, and going after the vegetarians seems like a waste of energy.
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@pelle I see that a lesser evil is still an evil. What I am interrogating is whether it is a lesser evil. Because animals are going to get hurt until everybody is on board, and going after the vegetarians seems like a waste of energy.
@sebug
many vegetarians have already made a conscious choice to try to reduce harm, so the talk about veganism is often more fruitful than talking with someone who has zero awareness or empathy.someone who maybe even laughs about animal abuse.
also, i don't quite see having that conversation as "going after" anyone. i think it is a friendly thing to do: to support each other doing less harm.
even if the initial reaction can be defensiveness.
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I quit eating meat in 2005, which for me was a big change in eating habits (especially since I used to be really picky with food).
That change was my own choice, not because someone told me I was doing wrong. I believe people need to make that decision for themselves, step by step, at their own pace, with the right encouragement. It’s a learning process that takes courage and requires old habits to be pushed aside. Sometimes it’s easy to forget the process we’ve gone through ourselves and then be quick to judge others. Not everyone is ready to make a full shift completely, it can be gradual, and that’s perfectly okay.
I don’t think advocates should shut up, in fact, I said that your opinion matters too. I think I have been pretty reasonable in trying to understand your point of view, while also trying to explain mine to you, which is also valid.
I don’t see myself as promoting animal products, but rather offering alternative eating styles with vegetarian and mostly vegan options for people who are open to it and maybe just starting their journey.@Veggie
your view is not valid at all:• you are harming animals by eating animal products,
• you are promoting animal abuse when you share photos of animal products on social media,
• you are greenwashing animal products by calling them "veggie",you should be ashamed of that. you can do better.
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It seems we have very different perspectives on this, and we’re going in circles.
If you believe that only your view is valid and mine is not worth considering simply because it’s different, then I think it’s best to end the conversation here.
Respect goes both ways, and I don’t feel you’re willing to see things from another point of view. Not everyone’s choices will align with yours, and the world is rarely black and white. -
It seems we have very different perspectives on this, and we’re going in circles.
If you believe that only your view is valid and mine is not worth considering simply because it’s different, then I think it’s best to end the conversation here.
Respect goes both ways, and I don’t feel you’re willing to see things from another point of view. Not everyone’s choices will align with yours, and the world is rarely black and white.@Veggie
yes, i am against rape, which is why i am sad when mothers are strapped in "rape racks" (which is an actual dairy industry term).are you for or against rape?
if you can't see the black-and-white of this issue, then you are moral relativist, you are nuance trolling, you are lost.
and your view is not valid, because condoning rape is a shitty view that does not deserve any respect.
