This is a very disturbing picture, with incredibly high numbers.
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@neil as a woman who dates men, im only surprised that they managed to get so many participants to admit it. I honestly would have thought it was an undercount if it was a lower percentage. Lovingly, yes it was extremely naive of you to be surprised. Hopefully "yes all men" hits as hard as it should now because yes, all men
@Irenetherogue Wow! How wrong I can be. But still, *95%*. That's *awful*.
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@Irenetherogue Wow! How wrong I can be. But still, *95%*. That's *awful*.
@neil agreed, it is awful. But it will never get better until more men accept that meaning well is not enough, that believing women means believing your own accusers, that there is no way to be a man without also being part of the problem (because yes, measurably ALL men), and that the only way to be part of the solution is to do the work of healing your own humanity enough to be able to identify and ultimately relinquish the entitlement to supremacy that is inherent to self-identifying as a member of a privileged group. Its excruciating and scary to say and do, but numbers like that back up the starkness of the story, and the urgency of the problem.
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RE: https://mstdn.social/@amydiehl/116398872299706764
This is a very disturbing picture, with incredibly high numbers. Perhaps I am naiive, but I found the figures here shocking.
@neil They are shocking numbers. For many reasons. It is *staggering* the scale of abuse.
The numbers are clear - good men must start calling out peers & make this behaviour unacceptable.
My personal frustration (obvious bias accepted) is that the loud narrative at the moment is suggesting the trans community, especially trans women are making women unsafe.
No data/evidence suggests that to be true & men must also call out this distraction from the truth.
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RE: https://mstdn.social/@amydiehl/116398872299706764
This is a very disturbing picture, with incredibly high numbers. Perhaps I am naiive, but I found the figures here shocking.
More scary data:
91% of people prosecuted for sexual offences are men aged 18+
And the number prosecuted in the first place is staggeringly low.
This is the one I find most concerning;
6 in 7 rapes against women are carried out by someone they know
..and directly relates to the study in my view. Familiarity is being used to hoodwink women at alarming rates.
Source: Rape Crisis England, https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/statistics-sexual-violence/
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More scary data:
91% of people prosecuted for sexual offences are men aged 18+
And the number prosecuted in the first place is staggeringly low.
This is the one I find most concerning;
6 in 7 rapes against women are carried out by someone they know
..and directly relates to the study in my view. Familiarity is being used to hoodwink women at alarming rates.
Source: Rape Crisis England, https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/statistics-sexual-violence/
> 6 in 7 rapes against women are carried out by someone they know
Yes, this came up 20ish years ago, when I was a law student, and I still think that many people perceive rape as a "stranger" thing.
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> 6 in 7 rapes against women are carried out by someone they know
Yes, this came up 20ish years ago, when I was a law student, and I still think that many people perceive rape as a "stranger" thing.
@neil that the numbers haven’t improved is the saddest bit of your reply.
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These are young men.
I didn't think that my sex education at school (an all boys school, in the late 1990s) was amazing, with its (entirely heterosexual) focus on consent and condoms, but even so...
I was under no illusions that rape-y behaviour exists, but I am genuinely gobsmacked by the numbers here.
@neil The numbers seem unbelievably bad indeed. Do however note that the study is not a random sampling, but includes a somewhat narrow selection criteria. As such it is certainly not representative of all men.
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@neil The numbers seem unbelievably bad indeed. Do however note that the study is not a random sampling, but includes a somewhat narrow selection criteria. As such it is certainly not representative of all men.
It is a dreadful figure, and personally I am more inclined to look towards myself, and other men, to do better, than to critique the study!
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> 6 in 7 rapes against women are carried out by someone they know
Yes, this came up 20ish years ago, when I was a law student, and I still think that many people perceive rape as a "stranger" thing.
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It is a dreadful figure, and personally I am more inclined to look towards myself, and other men, to do better, than to critique the study!
@neil I’m not criticizing the study. It describes its premise. It’s the takeaways based on a potential misreading of high number that I’m questioning. And regardless, the content is still troubling and thought-provoking.
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RE: https://mstdn.social/@amydiehl/116398872299706764
This is a very disturbing picture, with incredibly high numbers. Perhaps I am naiive, but I found the figures here shocking.
@neil I’m not clear what their sample represents: the way they’ve set it up I think means it’s sampling only US and Canadian men in that age range who have been involved in casual sex in the last 2 (4?) years — any dating or romantic history with the woman excludes the encounter?
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@neil I’m not clear what their sample represents: the way they’ve set it up I think means it’s sampling only US and Canadian men in that age range who have been involved in casual sex in the last 2 (4?) years — any dating or romantic history with the woman excludes the encounter?
@Colman Yes, I read it the same way.
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@Colman Yes, I read it the same way.
@neil which is substantially different to even “men aged (18-34)”.
That men in a predatory subculture are predatory is less surprising to me.
The study excludes anyone in a monogamous relationship for two years and anyone who waits until the third date or whatever and anyone who just hasn’t had sex in the last two years.
Still fucking awful.
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@neil I’m not criticizing the study. It describes its premise. It’s the takeaways based on a potential misreading of high number that I’m questioning. And regardless, the content is still troubling and thought-provoking.
I just posted a bit about what the stats do and don't show:
https://scicomm.xyz/@unchartedworlds/116402519402162501
I won't disagree that men-as-a-whole can do better. I'm thinking especially of things like saying "not cool" to other men being disrespectful, and refusing to find disrespectful "jokes" amusing. Perpetrators use jokes and banter to test the climate for what they can get away with.
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I just posted a bit about what the stats do and don't show:
https://scicomm.xyz/@unchartedworlds/116402519402162501
I won't disagree that men-as-a-whole can do better. I'm thinking especially of things like saying "not cool" to other men being disrespectful, and refusing to find disrespectful "jokes" amusing. Perpetrators use jokes and banter to test the climate for what they can get away with.
@unchartedworlds @kanongil @neil I'm unclear on the "sexual encounter with a woman" criteria. Does that include men who are in an ongoing romantic/sexual relationship or does it only mean encounters outside a relationship? I can't see where they specify the exact definition of that or the exact question they asked.
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@unchartedworlds @kanongil @neil I'm unclear on the "sexual encounter with a woman" criteria. Does that include men who are in an ongoing romantic/sexual relationship or does it only mean encounters outside a relationship? I can't see where they specify the exact definition of that or the exact question they asked.
@Colman @unchartedworlds @kanongil @neil
both, and on that aspect, I would have been excluded easily for long tract of time in my life. Especially with the known figures for that age band rn. Sex encounter for young people has been dropping down for years now, mostly due to the reduction in unwanted sex. Which is also dropping (correlated with the drop in use of alcohol).
If you mostly take no for an answer and find consent sexy, at least in my circles and age band (I still am in that band) you do not get a lot of sexual encounters. I am not surprised that people that got sexual encounter enough to register in this are the one using this kind of coercive tactics.
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@Colman @unchartedworlds @kanongil @neil
both, and on that aspect, I would have been excluded easily for long tract of time in my life. Especially with the known figures for that age band rn. Sex encounter for young people has been dropping down for years now, mostly due to the reduction in unwanted sex. Which is also dropping (correlated with the drop in use of alcohol).
If you mostly take no for an answer and find consent sexy, at least in my circles and age band (I still am in that band) you do not get a lot of sexual encounters. I am not surprised that people that got sexual encounter enough to register in this are the one using this kind of coercive tactics.
@Colman @unchartedworlds @kanongil @neil And yes, we should do better, but also... I do not go in the place these encounters happen the most anymore. It is not my scene, never has been. And same for most men I know that understand consent. They stop going in the places in which this kind of behavior happens the most.
I see it also with my SO. If I am not far from them, there is none of that behavior. The moment she steps out by herself to go for groceries or smoke, she gets hit upon. A lot.
It is hard for me to go stop behavior that do not happen when I am around. (I do still enforce them when they happen, but that is far far far less than what happens if I am not there. I know, she tells me)
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@unchartedworlds @kanongil @neil I'm unclear on the "sexual encounter with a woman" criteria. Does that include men who are in an ongoing romantic/sexual relationship or does it only mean encounters outside a relationship? I can't see where they specify the exact definition of that or the exact question they asked.
@Colman @unchartedworlds @neil From the abstract it seems there was no romantic relation with “The women were individuals with whom the men shared no prior romantic or sexual history”. I would expect mostly “players” are included in the study, which is still quite horrific but not an entirely unexpected outcome.
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@Colman @unchartedworlds @kanongil @neil And yes, we should do better, but also... I do not go in the place these encounters happen the most anymore. It is not my scene, never has been. And same for most men I know that understand consent. They stop going in the places in which this kind of behavior happens the most.
I see it also with my SO. If I am not far from them, there is none of that behavior. The moment she steps out by herself to go for groceries or smoke, she gets hit upon. A lot.
It is hard for me to go stop behavior that do not happen when I am around. (I do still enforce them when they happen, but that is far far far less than what happens if I am not there. I know, she tells me)
@Colman @unchartedworlds @kanongil @neil If anything, I find these results scary for what they tell us. We still do not have a good example to give men (and women) of what consent aware flirting is! There is a growing body of writing and experience out there, and it is good. But we are really far from a cultural result large enough for consent aware people to actually have a comparable sex life.
Which means the experience for women will not change significantly, as the one hitting on them and flirting will nearly always be the coercives one. Ofc they need to be cautious. But also, even if a growing (or majority) of men were consent aware, the women would still mostly encounter one that do not respect consent. Just teaching consent is not enough.
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@Colman @unchartedworlds @neil From the abstract it seems there was no romantic relation with “The women were individuals with whom the men shared no prior romantic or sexual history”. I would expect mostly “players” are included in the study, which is still quite horrific but not an entirely unexpected outcome.
@kanongil @unchartedworlds @neil that's true of the encounters they're talking about. I'm not clear how it was reflected in the selection criteria. Did they only include men who'd had that sort of encounter?
