Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
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@AgentOrange96 @jaredwhite Similar here: I write a lot of my own code by hand but I do sometimes use LLM code generation when the circumstances call for it (like throwaway scripts or small changes that are easily verifiable).
Given the general tone of these movements, I'd assume by default that we shouldn't add ourselves to the list, that it's only for people who absolutely never use LLMs, unless someone officially confirms otherwise.
@diazona @AgentOrange96 I'm intentionally not trying to lay out a series of pedantic rules…
Here's a previous response which might clarify: https://indieweb.social/@jaredwhite/116993388938146986
Also it doesn't have to apply to *everything* you might do now or in the future, just that you can point to a tangible software project(s) being used "in production" which can be credibly claimed was hand-coded that you stand by.
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@jaredwhite Is code generation still allowed? For example, annotating a certain class, which automatically generates source code. That is still hand-crafting, right?
I’ll leave the definitive answer to the project owner, but: Code generation by software, in the broad sense, does not necessarily imply something like AI slop.
Historically, almost any web site that wasn’t a completely static site (hand-written HTML and CSS only, identical for all users on a given page) had lots of software-generated code. Think PHP or Java or whatever running on the web server, churning out situation-specific HTML for you and your browser, based on stuff like your login status and site interactions.
That’s automated code generation at scale, and if you hand-write the web server code that does it, I think it should be totally fine here.
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@jaredwhite ooh i love this, will add myself later! :3
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
Funny, i started a poll about banning AI from the fediverse and a lot of excuses to use it dispite the current 90%+
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Funny, i started a poll about banning AI from the fediverse and a lot of excuses to use it dispite the current 90%+
@justbob heh. yeah AI consistently polls negatively across all sorts of spaces and industries. It may be more 50/50 in very commercial/mainstream arenas, but in no way can it be claimed that pro-AI is a majority position (other than among the suits, lol).
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@jaredwhite I assume that you mean without AI?
But with compilers on a computer and not with pen and paper.
What is the main motivation for not using LLMs as part of the development process?
I am asking mainly to understand as I am head of studies at a department of computer science and we are currently getting ready to put more coding with LLMs into courses.
Many reasons. Honestly the main reason for me lately is that it makes coding a miserable experience. Gambling, waiting, retrying. Then reviewing garbage and fixing things and updating agents.md, but the LLM ignores a lot of the that. Then more reviewing large PRs from peers that they didn't review well and so they are full of bugs that look good and need extra scrutiny to find. After correcting them, no one learns anything unlike the mentoring in traditional reviews.
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@jaredwhite I assume that you mean without AI?
But with compilers on a computer and not with pen and paper.
What is the main motivation for not using LLMs as part of the development process?
I am asking mainly to understand as I am head of studies at a department of computer science and we are currently getting ready to put more coding with LLMs into courses.
Why would you integrate coding LLMs into courses? Whatever is the best practice now will be obsolete in a few months. And trying to learn CS by having an AI doing the work is like using a robot to lift weights for you.
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@justbob heh. yeah AI consistently polls negatively across all sorts of spaces and industries. It may be more 50/50 in very commercial/mainstream arenas, but in no way can it be claimed that pro-AI is a majority position (other than among the suits, lol).
Using AI coding agents is a position of every computer programmer that gives them an honest trial, in the last six months.
The progress has been jaw dropping.
Good on you, good luck to you, but asking me not to use them is analogous to asking a carpenter not to use power tools
It is a good analogy, because just like power tools, if you do not know how to construct abstract logical systems, agents will get you in a terrible mess (but won't cut off any fingers)!
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite why not go straight to binary?
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Using AI coding agents is a position of every computer programmer that gives them an honest trial, in the last six months.
The progress has been jaw dropping.
Good on you, good luck to you, but asking me not to use them is analogous to asking a carpenter not to use power tools
It is a good analogy, because just like power tools, if you do not know how to construct abstract logical systems, agents will get you in a terrible mess (but won't cut off any fingers)!
Omish people have NOT been using power tools for centries and they make the best products in the world.
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@leeloo @UlrikNyman @jaredwhite I like that anology. Learning to program is very similar to training a muscle. That will not happen by using LLMs, similar to a sports student won’t gain muscles by driving around in a car…
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
Do simple Languages like VBA, VB.Net and Skriptlanguages like JavaScript count as Coding too?
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@diazona @AgentOrange96 I'm intentionally not trying to lay out a series of pedantic rules…
Here's a previous response which might clarify: https://indieweb.social/@jaredwhite/116993388938146986
Also it doesn't have to apply to *everything* you might do now or in the future, just that you can point to a tangible software project(s) being used "in production" which can be credibly claimed was hand-coded that you stand by.
@jaredwhite @AgentOrange96 Thanks for the info! I had actually read that response and didn't feel like it cleared things up - like, is it supposed to apply to every repo we create? Or just every public repo? Or a majority of repos with occasional exceptions allowed? Does it count software we partially contribute to or just software we maintain? What about projects done at work or on commission?
Not to say I expect you to answer all these questions; I totally understand wanting to leave the criteria a bit open-ended and just see what happens. It's just that, based on what I've seen, I can't tell if I'm eligible to join this list, so I won't.
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Using AI coding agents is a position of every computer programmer that gives them an honest trial, in the last six months.
The progress has been jaw dropping.
Good on you, good luck to you, but asking me not to use them is analogous to asking a carpenter not to use power tools
It is a good analogy, because just like power tools, if you do not know how to construct abstract logical systems, agents will get you in a terrible mess (but won't cut off any fingers)!
-
Using AI coding agents is a position of every computer programmer that gives them an honest trial, in the last six months.
The progress has been jaw dropping.
Good on you, good luck to you, but asking me not to use them is analogous to asking a carpenter not to use power tools
It is a good analogy, because just like power tools, if you do not know how to construct abstract logical systems, agents will get you in a terrible mess (but won't cut off any fingers)!
@worik @jaredwhite @justbob Functionally, I think comparing AI agents to power tools is a fair comparison. I like using power tools, but I know when to reach for a manual screwdriver, and I feel the same way about LLMs and agents of roughly the past half year.
One large issue with LLM assisted programming is its energy usage. I think the comparison is actually also pretty fair for that: powertools use more planetary resources and more energy, and they wreck the environment in many ways, especially if you consider that heavy machinery is just scaled-up powertools.
However, the metaphor kind of breaks when it comes to the other costs, both economic and societal. When I buy a power tool, I can keep using it until it breaks. Fortunately no subscriptions (yet). For the agentic LLM workflow to be fast enough, and for the powertool comparison to hold, you need a subscription from one of the big companies. Then there's copyright issues, loss of human skills, loss of jobs, etc, etc. I think it's completely reasonable to keep coding the "artisanal" way, as it is completely reasonable to eat vegan and to not travel needlessly.
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@jaredwhite why not go straight to binary?
@crumbletiltskin I can express complex abstract logical thought processes using an English-like grammar in binary?!
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Do simple Languages like VBA, VB.Net and Skriptlanguages like JavaScript count as Coding too?
@Derek_DIY of course! writing HTML or CSS also!
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite This is such the perfect excuse to finally sign up to @Codeberg
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite awesome stuff!!
I'll be submitting my name soon
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Yo, I'm heading up a brand-new community project.
We write code by hand.
️It's a growing opt-in directory of software developers who write code by hand. When you hear someone tell you “nobody does that” you can point to this and say “well these folks do.”
If you're #ProCraft and care about the future of handcrafted software, please add yourself to the list! I'd love to see this grow to 100s of signatories (I know y'all are out there!) and really send a message.
@jaredwhite this is awesome! AFK for the night but will sign tomorrow
