Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software.
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@serak @libreoffice "You must be able to ..." is generally unverifiable. The hard requirements in this policy as I see them are:
- The commit message must mention the name of the LLM product.
- The commit message must mention the version of the LLM product.
- The commit message must document "the steps taken", which I'm not sure how much detail they want, but I'd expect at least a high-level description like "I wrote prompt/specification X and told product Y to generate code" or "I originally wrote this code by hand, but I had product X review it and it pointed out the following issues, so I changed it" or something like that.
- The commit message must list the line numbers where an LLM was "involved", which I'd say includes all LLM-generated code and probably also anything written/changed after LLM review.
From what I can see, none of the LLM commits do (3) or (4). (Disclaimer: I'm not sure how useful a list of line numbers would actually be in practice, but the policy says you must have them.)
Examples:
@barubary @serak @libreoffice I can't even look at these commits on my phone cause Anubis is set to such a high standard it has been calculating hashes for multiple minutes and 2% of the battery charge
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@davidgerard @libreoffice like i hope he gets *something* substantial out of being the guy pelted by rotten produce for bootlicking gymnastics. minimum wage at least
@ciatmusings @libreoffice i think he's in it for the love of the game
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@barubary @serak @libreoffice I can't even look at these commits on my phone cause Anubis is set to such a high standard it has been calculating hashes for multiple minutes and 2% of the battery charge
@mezza @barubary @libreoffice On my phone it takes around 30 seconds which also is ridiculously long, I don't want to do that on a 15 year old ThinkPad.
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@libreoffice please don't redefine "slop" to mean that some genai outputs somehow aren't slop. it's all slop, because it's soulless
@lumi@snug.moe @libreoffice@fosstodon.org also, a "must be able to explain it" policy puts the weight on the shoulders of code review team to catch those who can't explain their code. Those who vibe code have a tendency to have zero concerns for the labor they offload onto others by using these data regurgitation tools, tools that typically do things more complicated than necessary and add unneeded and unwanted functions unasked.
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
@libreoffice yes, let's use the make code unreliable machine to make this program you use to work a mess. This is awful, I guess it's back to vim-classic for me.
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
@libreoffice got it. Never, ever, EVER update your programs ever again. Until I find something better. Then your stuff is deleted.
Ffs been using your stuff for over 15 years, and this is what you do? Disgusting.
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
@libreoffice Just say no to any generative AI. It's just wrong and it sucks in any of its forms (review, documentation, coding...)
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
@libreoffice so you *do* accept slop, so long as they can explain it.
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@libreoffice contributors doing a pinky promise in how they aren't using the slop machine in the way the slop machine encourages everyone to use it doesn't make those contributions any less slop.
In addition to that, it does nothing to make you less complicit with all the shockingly excessive CO2 production, hurdles in adoption of green energy, exploitation of workers in the training process, forced deskilling of specialised workers, financing and legitimisation of the most egregious corporations who are eagerly collaborating openly with fascist governments and contributing to war crimes, and transfer of wealth from individuals to these massive corporations and billionaires, among other issues that I probably forgot to include.
Do you really want to allow contributions that gave this kind of impact in the world? Changing your contribution guidelines to forbid AI contributions has both a positive impact in the development process and a positive impact in the world around. I ask you to reconsider this and make a change for the better, everyone will celebrate it the same way they celebrated the first article about not having slop features in the suite.
@ThisIsFroggie @davidgerard @libreoffice Exactly. Obfuscating the truth. Normalising lies. Completely ignoring the environmental consequences as though it’s a different conversation. Again, how much of complicit okay?
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
@libreoffice Being on the fence is one thing. Lying about the context of the “No AI” policy is criminal. Then arguing that you were right when your own policy proves you were being disingenuous, is goddam reprehensible. Fire the big tech marketing muppet and get on with it–you are alienating your target market.
Take responsibility and apologise. You cannot hide it. You have been called out.
People have had enough of this bullshit.
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@svavar I did not intend this to come over this way. I myself am very critical of LLMs and LO's use/acceptance of them and do not support their decision or want to argue in favor of it, I just genuinely wanted to take a look at those commits and thought it wouldn't be much effort for @barubary to share them after already having found them before. He actually took more effort with those explanations than I would've expected and I want to thank him for that.
@serak @svavar @barubary I think it's reasonable. Someone said they saw it.
I am definitely not FOR use of sex toys in software development, and I can see that the policy would be hard to enforce.
But it is *not* sea lioning when someone claims they have *seen* evidence.
Accusing someone of sea lioning in this situation is wonky.
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@solitarywalker @libreoffice or you could ban and shame liars when you catch them, that works too
@davidgerard @solitarywalker @libreoffice yup.
And, people seem to be forgetting that releases don't necessarily have all commits.
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
@libreoffice I'm not just worried about sloppy lines of code. I'm concerned over you accepting and normalizing a technology that cannot be separated from exploitation, largescale violation of intellectual property, and systems of inequality and dependency...
I would greatly appreciate if could at least address these problems if you choose to accept LLM contributions, and not just gloss over them. I'd be happier if you could continue completely AI-free.
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@desantis @TCD @libreoffice 30 years ago when I graded computer science students, since we had no way of knowing if they actually wrote the code themselves, all we had to go on was how well they could explain what they had done and answer questions about it.
But you can’t truthfully answer questions like ”why did you do it like this” when you haven’t done it yourself. And that goes for code that your friend wrote as well as generated code. And the why is important, perhaps the most important.
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@libreoffice I had a feeling that when you say 'no ai included by default' you meant that you do keep a nook open for it, though.
and it looks like that is the case.
you people made Libreoffice without slop before now. lose your principles, but maybe also be honest about it.and don't say you check each slop line, either
we know you don't. we know your reviewers and the submitters will not.
if you can't even write it, you don't know it, and if you don't know it, giving it a 'look over' is useless.
I could write rocket launch code with ai
and maybe I'd give it a look over before I launch it
but that doesn't mean I knew what to look for, it doesn't mean I could understand a vulnerability if I saw it
and maybe my rocket could get people killed
(inb4 'don't worry, ai is used to check the ai's work!')what ai makes it slop
whether you review the ai, or notmaybe libreoffice would like to purchase the finest of my NFTs?
I also have a few bridges@digipooch I was sincerely surprised OnlyOffice also integrated AI.
We're in deep doo-doo.
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@desantis @TCD @libreoffice 30 years ago when I graded computer science students, since we had no way of knowing if they actually wrote the code themselves, all we had to go on was how well they could explain what they had done and answer questions about it.
But you can’t truthfully answer questions like ”why did you do it like this” when you haven’t done it yourself. And that goes for code that your friend wrote as well as generated code. And the why is important, perhaps the most important.
@ahltorp @TCD @libreoffice This is the way. And, don't get me wrong, sometimes explaining something highly technical in layman's terms can be challenging, yet it is not impossible.
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
@libreoffice since I don't work on the code, and it has worked well decades, I have to trust that major and minor releases will be properly tested.
It's an issue of trust.
There's not much trust for llm use, as the responses show.
Llm use has become ubiquitous. The case for technical debt is there.
I choose to trust the project until proven I cannot.
The concerns are real, the stakes are high for digital sovereignty.
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
@libreoffice And this, kids, is what we call a cop out.
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Reminder: #LibreOffice includes no AI features in the software. It doesn't rewrite your content, train algorithms, or share your data. There is zero AI functionality in the app.
Regarding the use of LLMs in the development process, we have a strict policy about this: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/AI_policy – Contributors who use such tools must be able to explain EVERY changed line of code. We do not accept any "slop".
@libreoffice So, this policy is just that your project points out the issues with LLMs, states that it is probably not good for someone to use them, limits the uses, and then makes a *blatent exception* for the worst use-cases of LLMs.
This policy is basically the green-washing of LLM policies.
People who write patches with LLMs generally do not read the policies around them, so unless it is a stupid simple yes or no, these things are bikeshed forever. I don't envy your future review process.
