I would like to escape from systemd.
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@svuorela @marcusxms Okay, progressive in what sense? Serious question, I don't keep up with the ins and outs of Deuvan or most other distros.
@jjdavis @marcusxms they are happily embracing xlibre and other fascist adjacant projects.
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@jjdavis @marcusxms they are happily embracing xlibre and other fascist adjacant projects.
@svuorela @marcusxms Thanks.
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@jjdavis @marcusxms they are happily embracing xlibre and other fascist adjacant projects.
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@jjdavis 've heard about it, but being debian-based I would expect them to generally be behind on package versions and I'd personally prefer something more like Arch or Fedora in terms of package versions and adopting new technologies that aren't GenAI. Like Wayland, Pipewire and such.
Their repos appear to be selfhosted though, which is a big plus, but they maintain an active presence on Twitter/X which is disappointing.
@marcusxms I have followed the debian init diversity mailing list from time to time and I think one issue non-systemd distros are running in to is the spread of systemd foundational things, under various newer projects. There are some potential workarounds (like using elogind instead of the sytsemd equivalent), but it's a hard problem.
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@jjdavis @marcusxms they are happily embracing xlibre and other fascist adjacant projects.
@jjdavis @marcusxms and besides that, devuan ihas 'everything was better in the past' technical approach to things which is also not in any way progressive.
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@marcusxms I have followed the debian init diversity mailing list from time to time and I think one issue non-systemd distros are running in to is the spread of systemd foundational things, under various newer projects. There are some potential workarounds (like using elogind instead of the sytsemd equivalent), but it's a hard problem.
@jjdavis Yes, it's continually creeping into more and more places making it harder to weed out, but I'd also be happy to just be a lot less reliant on it than currently. Apparently switching init systems in Arch is not that hard, but actually removing systemd is the challenge.
But the mentioned projects do seem to get a lot further in that regard, and there's also the Gardenhouse project: https://codeberg.org/Gardenhouse
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I would like to escape from systemd. Two options considered were Artix and Void, but Artix is on Twitter and Void is heavily reliant on M$ GitHub. But a plus is that the latter is on Mastodon as well.
Are there more progressive options? I'd prefer rolling release, fairly bleeding edge and ideally precompiled packages are available. Main socials are in the fediverse and hosting is e.g. forgejo/gitea/codeberg. A policy against LLMs would be great, too.
@marcusxms Take a look at this article for possibilities: https://itsfoss.com/systemd-free-distros/
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@marcusxms Take a look at this article for possibilities: https://itsfoss.com/systemd-free-distros/
@IzzyChambers @marcusxms cross indexing that with https://noai.starlightnet.work/list.html gets you Gentoo and Chimera. Chimera uses some tooling from FreeBSD(‽) so Gentoo might be the more straightforward migration for someone who’s already used to Linux. -
I would like to escape from systemd. Two options considered were Artix and Void, but Artix is on Twitter and Void is heavily reliant on M$ GitHub. But a plus is that the latter is on Mastodon as well.
Are there more progressive options? I'd prefer rolling release, fairly bleeding edge and ideally precompiled packages are available. Main socials are in the fediverse and hosting is e.g. forgejo/gitea/codeberg. A policy against LLMs would be great, too.
@marcusxms I like #alpinelinux running edge (rolling) for a linux workstation. Their main social is IRC and they have their infra on Gitlab, but I think they're still lacking an LLM policy. I believe it's causing a bit of a rift in their community right now
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I would like to escape from systemd. Two options considered were Artix and Void, but Artix is on Twitter and Void is heavily reliant on M$ GitHub. But a plus is that the latter is on Mastodon as well.
Are there more progressive options? I'd prefer rolling release, fairly bleeding edge and ideally precompiled packages are available. Main socials are in the fediverse and hosting is e.g. forgejo/gitea/codeberg. A policy against LLMs would be great, too.
@marcusxms can I ask why you want to avoid systemd?
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I would like to escape from systemd. Two options considered were Artix and Void, but Artix is on Twitter and Void is heavily reliant on M$ GitHub. But a plus is that the latter is on Mastodon as well.
Are there more progressive options? I'd prefer rolling release, fairly bleeding edge and ideally precompiled packages are available. Main socials are in the fediverse and hosting is e.g. forgejo/gitea/codeberg. A policy against LLMs would be great, too.
@marcusxms Alpine! It's fast, fun, and is easy yo use! They host on Gitlab, which isn't Codeberg, but it's better than Github.
Also, it's Norwegian! That's not really a selling point, I just think Norway is super pretty.
You could also try Devuan testing/unstable. Not sure where they host, though.
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I would like to escape from systemd. Two options considered were Artix and Void, but Artix is on Twitter and Void is heavily reliant on M$ GitHub. But a plus is that the latter is on Mastodon as well.
Are there more progressive options? I'd prefer rolling release, fairly bleeding edge and ideally precompiled packages are available. Main socials are in the fediverse and hosting is e.g. forgejo/gitea/codeberg. A policy against LLMs would be great, too.
@marcusxms I run Alpine nowadays. It does everything I want in a Linux distribution (desktop, server, embedded). If it wasn't for Alpine and it being an "easy button" of sorts for someone that's been using Linux for a long time I'd be running FreeBSD.
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@marcusxms can I ask why you want to avoid systemd?
@benjaminlj In no particular order they're eagerly using LLMs for development, they were extremely early in making changes to prepare for age data gathering (verification) even when no laws were passed (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954 , reviewed by claude), and finally I don't particularly like it as an init system, and how it increasingly takes over more parts of the system, which to me should be independently handled so it's less tightly coupled and I can mix and match components as I please.
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@benjaminlj In no particular order they're eagerly using LLMs for development, they were extremely early in making changes to prepare for age data gathering (verification) even when no laws were passed (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/40954 , reviewed by claude), and finally I don't particularly like it as an init system, and how it increasingly takes over more parts of the system, which to me should be independently handled so it's less tightly coupled and I can mix and match components as I please.
@benjaminlj At least I seem to recall that e.g. the California law mentioned was only in the proposal stage and not in effect. Either way, I think they should've fought back, but instead they seemed to eagerly embrace it, helping its adoption.
As for the init system I just don't particularly like systemd unit/service files, so I'm curious to try out openrc, runit, s6 and/or dinit. I've seen devs of s6 and openrc in the fediverse so that already gives me a good impression of those.
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@IzzyChambers @marcusxms cross indexing that with https://noai.starlightnet.work/list.html gets you Gentoo and Chimera. Chimera uses some tooling from FreeBSD(‽) so Gentoo might be the more straightforward migration for someone who’s already used to Linux.
@fedward @IzzyChambers Thanks, I've never tried Gentoo so that could be fun, but I did try compiling everything on FreeBSD once and I think I might get tired of it because I'd like to update often, so I was hoping for pre-compiled packages to also be an option.
Chimera I hadn't looked at yet, thanks for the tip!
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@marcusxms I like #alpinelinux running edge (rolling) for a linux workstation. Their main social is IRC and they have their infra on Gitlab, but I think they're still lacking an LLM policy. I believe it's causing a bit of a rift in their community right now
.@kingocounty I've tried Alpine in a CI and I was just starting to consider that as a good contender for my server but didn't actually consider it for a good solution for a personal computer with as a daily driver, running a normal desktop with vms, possibly games and such. But maybe it's just fine for that?
IRC is great, and GitLab beats GitHub even though they're racing down the hill fast, shitting on their employees and eagerly promoting LLMs: https://about.gitlab.com/blog/gitlab-act-2/
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@marcusxms Alpine! It's fast, fun, and is easy yo use! They host on Gitlab, which isn't Codeberg, but it's better than Github.
Also, it's Norwegian! That's not really a selling point, I just think Norway is super pretty.
You could also try Devuan testing/unstable. Not sure where they host, though.
@cocaine_owlbear Great to hear! Are you using it as a personal computer with a desktop environment and such? I've tried it in a CI and I'm starting to consider it a strong contender for a server, but I had never really thought it was useful as a personal computer too? But maybe it is?
I like Norway!
Devuan sadly seems to not be a great project ideologically speaking as pointed out by someone in the comments. I'd also like something more like Arch or Fedora in terms of package versions.
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@marcusxms I run Alpine nowadays. It does everything I want in a Linux distribution (desktop, server, embedded). If it wasn't for Alpine and it being an "easy button" of sorts for someone that's been using Linux for a long time I'd be running FreeBSD.
@RootMoose Alright, that's great to hear! It being good for desktop is news to me!
I used to run FreeBSD on a server and I had a good impression of it. I think I mostly switched away just to try something else, which has frequently been the reason, not always with good results.
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@benjaminlj At least I seem to recall that e.g. the California law mentioned was only in the proposal stage and not in effect. Either way, I think they should've fought back, but instead they seemed to eagerly embrace it, helping its adoption.
As for the init system I just don't particularly like systemd unit/service files, so I'm curious to try out openrc, runit, s6 and/or dinit. I've seen devs of s6 and openrc in the fediverse so that already gives me a good impression of those.
@marcusxms okay, thanks for clarifying. I've not yet fully understood how they would ever actually make any restrictions based on age but then again, I know very little of the subject.
I've been planning on using podman quadlets for #Folkeføderation, but that's based on systemd. (I agree that the file format is quite terrible compared to good old docker compose!) Perhaps I should look a bit more for alternatives
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@cocaine_owlbear Great to hear! Are you using it as a personal computer with a desktop environment and such? I've tried it in a CI and I'm starting to consider it a strong contender for a server, but I had never really thought it was useful as a personal computer too? But maybe it is?
I like Norway!
Devuan sadly seems to not be a great project ideologically speaking as pointed out by someone in the comments. I'd also like something more like Arch or Fedora in terms of package versions.
@marcusxms I'm not currently running it, but it does make an excellent desktop OS. While it is more designed with servers in mind, its lightness and minimalism translate to fast startups and excellent responsiveness in desktops. I've run Gnome, Plasma, and XFCE desktops on it, all fast and surprisingly stable.
I would like to give it another go and try a Niri/QuickShell setup some time, but I'm running weird stuff on my laptop rn.
