I do appreciate all the work the EU has done with regulatory work around data sovereignty and the DMA.
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@JessTheUnstill Same, but the EU/US economies are so intertwined that an actual conflict would hurt both sides an insane amount.
@ainmosni Still, even just demonstration that there are actual concrete plans to end their reliance on the US makes the threat have weight behind it. It's pointless saber rattling if everyone knows cutting the EU from the US would hurt the EU FAR more than it'd hurt the US. It's like trying to have a nuclear deterrent with 1/4 as many ICBMs
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@ainmosni Still, even just demonstration that there are actual concrete plans to end their reliance on the US makes the threat have weight behind it. It's pointless saber rattling if everyone knows cutting the EU from the US would hurt the EU FAR more than it'd hurt the US. It's like trying to have a nuclear deterrent with 1/4 as many ICBMs
@JessTheUnstill yeah, tbh, I think Trump's behaviour is undoing one of the US's greatest strengths, the one where people didn't think too much on all the stuff we were using from over there, and that it was fine that the US underpinned so many things.
So much soft power squandered in such a short time.
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@JessTheUnstill @fogti was thinking about a bit more of a weaponised option: microsoft ransomwares windows
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@JessTheUnstill yeah, tbh, I think Trump's behaviour is undoing one of the US's greatest strengths, the one where people didn't think too much on all the stuff we were using from over there, and that it was fine that the US underpinned so many things.
So much soft power squandered in such a short time.
@ainmosni It's not just Trump. After Trump 1, and Biden coming into office, many countries were willing to accept that Trump was a weird one-off anomaly that the US Public had a screwed up election and voted an asshole for one term. The fact that we then elected him AGAIN. After an attempted coup, and with his explicit promises to fuck over anyone and everyone he doesn't like, including all of our allies. Now we've shown the world that even IF our elections and peaceful transition of power manages to occur in 26 and 28, they can reasonably anticipate a US fascist president will come back in power in 2032 or 2036. Because the fanatic fascist electorate will continue to be roughly 40% of the population no matter what. It just takes a below average Democrat candidate to let them roll into power again.
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I do appreciate all the work the EU has done with regulatory work around data sovereignty and the DMA. But they would still be gigafucked if the US ordered Amazon, Google, and Microsoft to cut them off. They may not even have the encryption keys accessible entirely in the EU. The fact that their data physically resides in Europe don't mean shit if a US corp can kill their whole infrastructure with a single command to lock their accounts.
@JessTheUnstill If the #EU gets on as accelerated a course to shifting to tech alternatives as they did to renewable energy when Russia started using gas export cutoffs to oppose arms assistance to Ukraine, so they can issue a credible threat of losing Europe’s business, they could sell Microsoft, Amazon, and Google on a relatively easy solution:
Reorganize and split the companies, such that Microsoft Europe, Amazon Europe, and Google Europe become separate non-subsidiary legal entities, headquartered in European democracies and tied to their American counterparts not by ownership or common leaders, but only by contracts, irrevocable IP licenses, and bidirectional API keys.
They could legally permit the European counterparts to fail to compete with the American counterparts, and even to work at the American companies’ direction except as necessary to comply with laws of the European headquarters country or compatible laws of jurisdictions of customers of the European entity, or with legal agreements under those laws with customers subject to those jurisdictions.
As a condition of retaining Europe’s business, they only must prohibit any part of the European company being owned or led by the American company, nor by any entity which owns or administers any part of that company, and to prohibit any person answerable to the American company or its government having administrative access to the European company.
Once the American companies have no technical, legal, or organizational ability to fire staff, delete data, or shut down infrastructure of the European companies, the European companies can continue as the American companies’ proxies, and can even remit the vast majority of their profit to the American companies so long as the Americans uphold their side of the contract.
#Canada and a few other large jurisdictions (such as #SouthKorea) could implement similar solutions, and then the rest of the world could choose between the American entity or its non-subsidiary foreign proxy. Each of the mutually independent yet mostly cooperating international doppelgänger companies would then have exactly one axis of competition: which best respects the sovereignty of the customer government or the private customer’s country.
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@ainmosni It's not just Trump. After Trump 1, and Biden coming into office, many countries were willing to accept that Trump was a weird one-off anomaly that the US Public had a screwed up election and voted an asshole for one term. The fact that we then elected him AGAIN. After an attempted coup, and with his explicit promises to fuck over anyone and everyone he doesn't like, including all of our allies. Now we've shown the world that even IF our elections and peaceful transition of power manages to occur in 26 and 28, they can reasonably anticipate a US fascist president will come back in power in 2032 or 2036. Because the fanatic fascist electorate will continue to be roughly 40% of the population no matter what. It just takes a below average Democrat candidate to let them roll into power again.
@JessTheUnstill Yeah, I'm not going to argue against that, it also doesn't help that Trump 2 goes so much harder than Trump 1.
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@JessTheUnstill Agreed, but people tend to not learn these lessons until after the big disaster has happened. As in, when they look back on it.
I've been in more than one corporate disaster-planning meeting where someone says "what about <disaster X>" and the reply is "if <disaster X> happens we'll be fucked so let's just plan for cheaper disasters."
I've never worked on government disaster-planning but I can imagine it being similar.
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@ainmosni essentially, this sort of thing should be a part of every critical infrastructure business continuity planning. Even if it's just a tabletop exercise.
@JessTheUnstill It's also of course the sort of crisis/disaster exercise that essentially nobody will do because (a) it's "inconceivable", and (b) everyone will be equally fucked anyway, so it's inconceivable, and (c) everyone will be equally fucked anyway, so them *also* being fucked is not a problem.
I WISH I WAS JOKING. Or just exaggerating!
🤬For the record: no, I don't consider it inconceivable. Maybe unlikely, but with *grotesque* consequences if it does happen.
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I've been in more than one corporate disaster-planning meeting where someone says "what about <disaster X>" and the reply is "if <disaster X> happens we'll be fucked so let's just plan for cheaper disasters."
I've never worked on government disaster-planning but I can imagine it being similar.
@passenger @ainmosni I used to work for a major critical infrastructure company who took pride in hosting their own data centers and having few outside dependencies. They were very reluctant to put dependency on SaaS or cloud. But then apparently some sweet talking salespeople from MS got in the CIO's ear, they sold their brand new data center, and migrated everything to the cloud and SaaS. It's US corp, but even still, it bothers me to see.
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@passenger @ainmosni I used to work for a major critical infrastructure company who took pride in hosting their own data centers and having few outside dependencies. They were very reluctant to put dependency on SaaS or cloud. But then apparently some sweet talking salespeople from MS got in the CIO's ear, they sold their brand new data center, and migrated everything to the cloud and SaaS. It's US corp, but even still, it bothers me to see.
"The market interprets resilience as inefficiency and routes around it."
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I do appreciate all the work the EU has done with regulatory work around data sovereignty and the DMA. But they would still be gigafucked if the US ordered Amazon, Google, and Microsoft to cut them off. They may not even have the encryption keys accessible entirely in the EU. The fact that their data physically resides in Europe don't mean shit if a US corp can kill their whole infrastructure with a single command to lock their accounts.
@JessTheUnstill Ping @genma (your text advances?)
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@ainmosni It's not just Trump. After Trump 1, and Biden coming into office, many countries were willing to accept that Trump was a weird one-off anomaly that the US Public had a screwed up election and voted an asshole for one term. The fact that we then elected him AGAIN. After an attempted coup, and with his explicit promises to fuck over anyone and everyone he doesn't like, including all of our allies. Now we've shown the world that even IF our elections and peaceful transition of power manages to occur in 26 and 28, they can reasonably anticipate a US fascist president will come back in power in 2032 or 2036. Because the fanatic fascist electorate will continue to be roughly 40% of the population no matter what. It just takes a below average Democrat candidate to let them roll into power again.
And another thing that Trump has shown and is showing: how fragile US institutions are *in practice*. That even if things do settle back down, and institutions get rebuilt under a constitutional and legal framework similar to what there was say a decade ago; at any time it could be just a year or two after the next election that we're right back in the situation we're in now.
Part of the problem is what any specific US president would do. Part of it seems systemic.
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@JessTheUnstill If the #EU gets on as accelerated a course to shifting to tech alternatives as they did to renewable energy when Russia started using gas export cutoffs to oppose arms assistance to Ukraine, so they can issue a credible threat of losing Europe’s business, they could sell Microsoft, Amazon, and Google on a relatively easy solution:
Reorganize and split the companies, such that Microsoft Europe, Amazon Europe, and Google Europe become separate non-subsidiary legal entities, headquartered in European democracies and tied to their American counterparts not by ownership or common leaders, but only by contracts, irrevocable IP licenses, and bidirectional API keys.
They could legally permit the European counterparts to fail to compete with the American counterparts, and even to work at the American companies’ direction except as necessary to comply with laws of the European headquarters country or compatible laws of jurisdictions of customers of the European entity, or with legal agreements under those laws with customers subject to those jurisdictions.
As a condition of retaining Europe’s business, they only must prohibit any part of the European company being owned or led by the American company, nor by any entity which owns or administers any part of that company, and to prohibit any person answerable to the American company or its government having administrative access to the European company.
Once the American companies have no technical, legal, or organizational ability to fire staff, delete data, or shut down infrastructure of the European companies, the European companies can continue as the American companies’ proxies, and can even remit the vast majority of their profit to the American companies so long as the Americans uphold their side of the contract.
#Canada and a few other large jurisdictions (such as #SouthKorea) could implement similar solutions, and then the rest of the world could choose between the American entity or its non-subsidiary foreign proxy. Each of the mutually independent yet mostly cooperating international doppelgänger companies would then have exactly one axis of competition: which best respects the sovereignty of the customer government or the private customer’s country.
@deFractal @JessTheUnstill Yeah, that *could* work—but the US government absolutely will not let it happen: ratfucking will commence in 3 … 2 … 1 …
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I do appreciate all the work the EU has done with regulatory work around data sovereignty and the DMA. But they would still be gigafucked if the US ordered Amazon, Google, and Microsoft to cut them off. They may not even have the encryption keys accessible entirely in the EU. The fact that their data physically resides in Europe don't mean shit if a US corp can kill their whole infrastructure with a single command to lock their accounts.
@JessTheUnstill What about the lower levels? US could order a removal of EU assets from IANA, ICANN, root DNS etc. No more domains, no more IPs etc.
What do we say to that?
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https://infosec.exchange/@JessTheUnstill/115939298181381194
God, can you imagine the chaos if all the accounting departments lost everything?
@JessTheUnstill Maybe that's the kind of chaos we need to reset our (broken) economic system.
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