👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993.
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(2/5) … In https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ ,
Denver's key points are: we *have* to (a) be open to *listening* to people who want to contribute #FOSS with #LLM-backed generative #AI systems, & (b) work collaboratively on a *plan* of how we can solve the current crisis.Nothing ever got done politically that was good when both sides become more entrenched, refuse to even concede the other side has some valid points, & each say the other is the Enemy. …
@bkuhn @silverwizard @cwebber How do we provide the "preferred form of the work for making modifications" when the preferred means is a mess of context combined with a proprietary, changing LLM model?
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(2/5) … In https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ ,
Denver's key points are: we *have* to (a) be open to *listening* to people who want to contribute #FOSS with #LLM-backed generative #AI systems, & (b) work collaboratively on a *plan* of how we can solve the current crisis.Nothing ever got done politically that was good when both sides become more entrenched, refuse to even concede the other side has some valid points, & each say the other is the Enemy. …
@bkuhn @silverwizard @cwebber and honestly, I don't have the time or energy for a session. I have to spend every moment of every day arguing why LLMs aren't actually a great solution for many things (but they're fine for a few!), I have to review crap code contributions from senior engineers who used to write good code before they use LLMs and I'm beyond tired of reminding people that none of the companies providing the models have a sustainable business model nor do they appear to have a plausible path to sustainability.
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(1/5) [ Meta-info to start the thread. Here and the posts that follow reply to lots of people's comments (from various threads) together here. Can we consolidate this conversation into this single thread to discuss https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ ? ]
Cc: @wwahammy @silverwizard @mjw @cwebber @josh @jamey @mason @spencer @rootwyrm @drwho @mmu_man @mathieui @beeoproblem
(3/5) …
Proprietary #LLM-backed gen #AI systems' *users* aren't criminals! They're just users of proprietary systems & some of them want to engage positively with FOSS.Years ago, I supported Homebrew's membership at #SFC despite their *primary* goal of improving #Apple products with #FOSS. It make me a bit
, but — historically — forming alliances with proprietary software enthusiasts who mean well & are #FOSS-curious is why our community is resilient. -
(2/5) … In https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ ,
Denver's key points are: we *have* to (a) be open to *listening* to people who want to contribute #FOSS with #LLM-backed generative #AI systems, & (b) work collaboratively on a *plan* of how we can solve the current crisis.Nothing ever got done politically that was good when both sides become more entrenched, refuse to even concede the other side has some valid points, & each say the other is the Enemy. …
@bkuhn I was working on two proposals for FOSSY and I'm not sure I even want to submit them any more.
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(3/5) …
Proprietary #LLM-backed gen #AI systems' *users* aren't criminals! They're just users of proprietary systems & some of them want to engage positively with FOSS.Years ago, I supported Homebrew's membership at #SFC despite their *primary* goal of improving #Apple products with #FOSS. It make me a bit
, but — historically — forming alliances with proprietary software enthusiasts who mean well & are #FOSS-curious is why our community is resilient.@bkuhn @wwahammy @silverwizard @cwebber It's also how we *got* a Free Software community in the first place. I know it's been a long time, but Free Software sprouted from proprietary systems. Yes, we'd like the Overton window to move more in our favor, but shunning people isn't the way to do it.
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(3/5) …
Proprietary #LLM-backed gen #AI systems' *users* aren't criminals! They're just users of proprietary systems & some of them want to engage positively with FOSS.Years ago, I supported Homebrew's membership at #SFC despite their *primary* goal of improving #Apple products with #FOSS. It make me a bit
, but — historically — forming alliances with proprietary software enthusiasts who mean well & are #FOSS-curious is why our community is resilient.@bkuhn @silverwizard @cwebber in some cases they are criminals, they may be committing felony copyright infringement. I don't think that's remotely important to this discussion but I'd like to note that the hyperbolic phrasing is factually untrue.
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(1/5) [ Meta-info to start the thread. Here and the posts that follow reply to lots of people's comments (from various threads) together here. Can we consolidate this conversation into this single thread to discuss https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ ? ]
Cc: @wwahammy @silverwizard @mjw @cwebber @josh @jamey @mason @spencer @rootwyrm @drwho @mmu_man @mathieui @beeoproblem
(4/5)…It's easy to forget that the enemy to software freedom is *not* proprietary systems' *users*, rather those who *sell* such systems *for profit*. #LLM-backed gen-#AI proprietary systems are simply the latest tech fad (like, say, Web 2.0 & AJAX).
@karen & I keynoted 2x at #FOSDEM & 1x at LCA about the importance of — as social workers say — “meeting people where they are”:
https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/interviews/bradley-m-kuhn-karen-sandler/
https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/full_software_freedom/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n55WClalwHo
https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/open_source_won/Cc: @silverwizard @josh
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(4/5)…It's easy to forget that the enemy to software freedom is *not* proprietary systems' *users*, rather those who *sell* such systems *for profit*. #LLM-backed gen-#AI proprietary systems are simply the latest tech fad (like, say, Web 2.0 & AJAX).
@karen & I keynoted 2x at #FOSDEM & 1x at LCA about the importance of — as social workers say — “meeting people where they are”:
https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/interviews/bradley-m-kuhn-karen-sandler/
https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/full_software_freedom/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n55WClalwHo
https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/open_source_won/Cc: @silverwizard @josh
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(4/5)…It's easy to forget that the enemy to software freedom is *not* proprietary systems' *users*, rather those who *sell* such systems *for profit*. #LLM-backed gen-#AI proprietary systems are simply the latest tech fad (like, say, Web 2.0 & AJAX).
@karen & I keynoted 2x at #FOSDEM & 1x at LCA about the importance of — as social workers say — “meeting people where they are”:
https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/interviews/bradley-m-kuhn-karen-sandler/
https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/full_software_freedom/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n55WClalwHo
https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/open_source_won/Cc: @silverwizard @josh
@bkuhn @karen @silverwizard @josh there was an obvious path to sustainability for Web 2.0 and ajax so it made sense to use them.
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@bkuhn @ossguy The surprising thing about saying "seriously consider cautiously and carefully incorporating their workflows with ours" is that it doesn't address at all my *biggest* fear: the copyright status of LLM generated contributions seems currently unsettled.
I know there's been assertions to the contrary floating around: the Supreme Court deferred to a lower court in the US. However that is not the same thing as the Supreme Court making a specific decision. And internationally, the copyright situation of output is even murkier... it will take a long time for this to settle.
Does Conservancy not think this is the case? I would be surprised if so, but perhaps you all have an interpretation that I am not currently aware of.
If there *is* concern, then we hit a serious risk: we may be seeing many contributions with legal status which has *yet to be determined* entering seasoned codebases. And this worries me a lot.
@cwebber I think maybe you missed https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/mar/04/scotus-deny-cert-dc-circuit-thaler-appeal-llm-ai/ where #SFC analyzed that situation?
Also, follow @ai_cases & see the *firehose* of litigation on this & remember the “Work Based on the Program” issue under GPLv2 has still never been litigated directly but lots of cases about 100% proprietary software have bolstered GPL's strength.Big Content has legal battles with Big Tech on 100s of fronts rn. Yes, we're adrift on their sea, but the situation is not as dire as you imagine.
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Nor does @ossguy claim in his post that “slop commits from people #LLM-backed gen #AI are good”. I think people are reading it as if he said it, but he didn't.
He's putting out an olive branch to people who have been lambasted by the #FOSS community for months. Maybe they'll take it, maybe they won't.
But peaceful negotiation is better than a protracted, hateful argument.
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Nor does @ossguy claim in his post that “slop commits from people #LLM-backed gen #AI are good”. I think people are reading it as if he said it, but he didn't.
He's putting out an olive branch to people who have been lambasted by the #FOSS community for months. Maybe they'll take it, maybe they won't.
But peaceful negotiation is better than a protracted, hateful argument.
@bkuhn @silverwizard @ossguy @karen @josh I love you all. I truly do. But I think this is a massive misstep.
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@bkuhn @silverwizard @ossguy @karen @josh I love you all. I truly do. But I think this is a massive misstep.
Feel free to share what you would do in our place. I am genuinely interested.
But talking with the people sending #slop patches is the best way to resolve the escalating crisis.
Shouting that it's all horrible is not working.
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Nor does @ossguy claim in his post that “slop commits from people #LLM-backed gen #AI are good”. I think people are reading it as if he said it, but he didn't.
He's putting out an olive branch to people who have been lambasted by the #FOSS community for months. Maybe they'll take it, maybe they won't.
But peaceful negotiation is better than a protracted, hateful argument.
@bkuhn @karen @josh @ossguy I think the problem is one of not really looking at the conversation as it's happening. It's why my post was focused on a car analogy. Even if those people have good intention, the tools they're bringing in destroy the community.
I think that the problem is that the idea of not accepting people who are using the tools feels like an attempt to smuggle in the tools. If someone has chosen to use claude code for a while and now wants to contribute helpfully - fine. But how many of those people are there? Is there a cohort of LLM users who want to learn coding skills? Or are they wanting to *contribute* using their *LLM skills*?
I think Denver doesn't prove the existence of the cohort so is being read as attempting to defend something else.
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@bkuhn @ossguy The surprising thing about saying "seriously consider cautiously and carefully incorporating their workflows with ours" is that it doesn't address at all my *biggest* fear: the copyright status of LLM generated contributions seems currently unsettled.
I know there's been assertions to the contrary floating around: the Supreme Court deferred to a lower court in the US. However that is not the same thing as the Supreme Court making a specific decision. And internationally, the copyright situation of output is even murkier... it will take a long time for this to settle.
Does Conservancy not think this is the case? I would be surprised if so, but perhaps you all have an interpretation that I am not currently aware of.
If there *is* concern, then we hit a serious risk: we may be seeing many contributions with legal status which has *yet to be determined* entering seasoned codebases. And this worries me a lot.
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You may not realize this is a disingenuous answer.
I've actually looked into how to become a UK citizen (or even get the right to work for an entity in another country and live in the UK) and it is extremely difficult.
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Talking with them is good. Helping to educate them is good. Making it sound as if what they are doing is okay is *not*.
There is a big difference between offering an olive branch to people who *might* be productive contributors in the *future*, and telling them that what they're doing *now* is okay.
The best AI policy remains "do not contribute any LLM-written content, ever". You have published a post that makes it easier for people who oppose such policies to cite your "olive branch" when arguing against it, and it is not obvious from your post that you do not want that to happen.
I don't want to see people *abused* for using LLMs. I do want them to understand that what they're doing is not okay and not welcome and not a positive contribution. -
@bkuhn @cwebber @ossguy Yeah, easier said than done, but goes to show that there's no common approach to GenAI copyright across countries. It might give the UK a small competitive advantage if/when the bubble pops and the House of Lords advice is heeded by the Commons, as in, don't suspend author protections because of specious arguments from big tech.
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@bkuhn @karen @josh @ossguy I think the problem is one of not really looking at the conversation as it's happening. It's why my post was focused on a car analogy. Even if those people have good intention, the tools they're bringing in destroy the community.
I think that the problem is that the idea of not accepting people who are using the tools feels like an attempt to smuggle in the tools. If someone has chosen to use claude code for a while and now wants to contribute helpfully - fine. But how many of those people are there? Is there a cohort of LLM users who want to learn coding skills? Or are they wanting to *contribute* using their *LLM skills*?
I think Denver doesn't prove the existence of the cohort so is being read as attempting to defend something else.
@ossguy's post isn't intended to be a *proof*, it's intended to be an *invitation to a discussion*.
So much of your response presupposes motivations of large groups of people that are not talking in a productive way (at the moment) with the FOSS community.
All of your questions are *open questions* that we should *talk* with others to get the answers to.
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@bkuhn @cwebber @ossguy Yeah, easier said than done, but goes to show that there's no common approach to GenAI copyright across countries. It might give the UK a small competitive advantage if/when the bubble pops and the House of Lords advice is heeded by the Commons, as in, don't suspend author protections because of specious arguments from big tech.
Ok, but @ossguy's post wasn't about the copyright issues with LLM-backed generative AI, so it's an orthogonal conversation.
I highly doubt those key people whom we've asked to join the conversation (users who use LLM-backed generative AI to submit (what are often) slop patches) understand the copyright issues all that well.
