Here’s a reminder about one of the most important results of the past fourteen years of ancient DNA research.
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@mrundkvist
Citations?There was massive population loss from plagues, more than once.
But not population replacement.
Normans invaded Anglo Saxon "England" in 1066, but were never more than a small percentage of population.Iceland is Scandinavian mixed with Celts (either captured or Emigrated).
Celts are originally from Central Asia (last I heard anyway. I'm sure folks will let me know if there is newer news!)
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@mrundkvist wow. What sources do you recommend read to learn more about this?
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@mrundkvist I knew about a lot of migrations everywhere but I didn't know that there was such an early and desastrous plague wave.
Does it mean that the newcomers were more resistant against the plague?Maybe not. But the plague is a zoonotic disease, a change in the rodent population can very effectively stop a plague wave. But we don't really know why and how a plague pandemic ends.
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@raymaccarthy @BobDevney @mrundkvist But OP is *about* Neolithic migrations?
@datarama
True. The Scandy Neolithic is c. 4000-1700 cal BC. The Corded Ware arrives c. 2800. -
Celts are originally from Central Asia (last I heard anyway. I'm sure folks will let me know if there is newer news!)
@NilaJones @raymaccarthy
No. Ireland is heavily dominated by the R1b haplotype, just like Britain. It's the Corded Ware / Bell Beaker guys there too, from Ukraine. -
@NilaJones @raymaccarthy
No. Ireland is heavily dominated by the R1b haplotype, just like Britain. It's the Corded Ware / Bell Beaker guys there too, from Ukraine.I appreciate you sharing your knowledge here!
I wasn't asking that Ireland, but rather about the celts specifically, who I understood came originally from Central Asia, and then into Hungary, and then I think Eastern France, and then up into Ireland
Leaving red-headed populations in each area
But maybe this was a lot later historically? Or just wrong? I think I'm getting most of this from an old documentary on public TV
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I appreciate you sharing your knowledge here!
I wasn't asking that Ireland, but rather about the celts specifically, who I understood came originally from Central Asia, and then into Hungary, and then I think Eastern France, and then up into Ireland
Leaving red-headed populations in each area
But maybe this was a lot later historically? Or just wrong? I think I'm getting most of this from an old documentary on public TV
@NilaJones
Nope, that was an old pre-DNA hypothesis regarding the Tocharians and Tarim Basin mummies. -
@NilaJones
Nope, that was an old pre-DNA hypothesis regarding the Tocharians and Tarim Basin mummies.Thank you very much!
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Here’s a reminder about one of the most important results of the past fourteen years of ancient DNA research. Northern Europe was overrun by plague-spreading steppe nomads less than 5000 years ago, causing an almost complete population replacement.
It’s a 1492 event. Everybody knows that us Northern Europeans aren’t the original inhabitants of North America. But we aren’t even the original inhabitants of Northern Europe.
@mrundkvist Huh. Perhaps of interest: according to Eckert et al in *Korea, Old and New: A History*, "comb-pattern pottery" appears on the Korean peninsula circa 4000 BCE. In addition, it's also found in Siberia, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, and Japan.
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@mrundkvist
Citations?There was massive population loss from plagues, more than once.
But not population replacement.
Normans invaded Anglo Saxon "England" in 1066, but were never more than a small percentage of population.Iceland is Scandinavian mixed with Celts (either captured or Emigrated).
@raymaccarthy @mrundkvist Thing is, the Scandinavians who eventually settled Iceland aren't descended from the Paleolithic Scandinavians who hunted reindeer in southern Scandinavia 10000 years ago. They (and all other currently-living Scandinavians, myself included) are descended from Neolithic steppe nomads who moved in from Western Asia and apparently completely wiped out the descendants of those reindeer hunters - likely mainly by plague, but possibly also with violence.
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Here’s a reminder about one of the most important results of the past fourteen years of ancient DNA research. Northern Europe was overrun by plague-spreading steppe nomads less than 5000 years ago, causing an almost complete population replacement.
It’s a 1492 event. Everybody knows that us Northern Europeans aren’t the original inhabitants of North America. But we aren’t even the original inhabitants of Northern Europe.
@mrundkvist
For any statement, it becomes untrue at a certain level of detail.
In Finland this model breaks down somewhere near Kuusamo, which... Makes sense if you've ever tried to travel there.
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomalaiset -
@mrundkvist
For any statement, it becomes untrue at a certain level of detail.
In Finland this model breaks down somewhere near Kuusamo, which... Makes sense if you've ever tried to travel there.
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomalaiset@dnavinci
I have successfully travelled by land and sea to Kuopio and seen actual kalakukko being sold in the market square!!! -
@dnavinci
I have successfully travelled by land and sea to Kuopio and seen actual kalakukko being sold in the market square!!!@mrundkvist
Ahahahah, Kuopio is home to me!
The kalakukko grows on you! -
@raymaccarthy @mrundkvist Thing is, the Scandinavians who eventually settled Iceland aren't descended from the Paleolithic Scandinavians who hunted reindeer in southern Scandinavia 10000 years ago. They (and all other currently-living Scandinavians, myself included) are descended from Neolithic steppe nomads who moved in from Western Asia and apparently completely wiped out the descendants of those reindeer hunters - likely mainly by plague, but possibly also with violence.
@datarama@hachyderm.io @raymaccarthy@mastodon.ie @mrundkvist@archaeo.social Natural selection hasn't gone away. And now "white" people are being replaced by people from countries where patriarchy still exists.
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@mrundkvist
Ahahahah, Kuopio is home to me!
The kalakukko grows on you!{random american searches...}
kalakukko
rye bread with fish filling
huh
sounds like it would be quite hardy and wholesome, excellent fuel for working outdoors in the cold
the taste is what i wonder about
someday i'll try it
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{random american searches...}
kalakukko
rye bread with fish filling
huh
sounds like it would be quite hardy and wholesome, excellent fuel for working outdoors in the cold
the taste is what i wonder about
someday i'll try it
@benroyce
There are two kinds, vendace and salmon. Definitely go with the vendace.
Also they have little mini ones in the market hall which are better for a first taste
@mrundkvist -
@mrundkvist @raymaccarthy the way we define historic people's by their pottery like this (see also the funnel beaker people). I wonder, are we the IKEA people?
@quixoticgeek @mrundkvist @raymaccarthy
I think we're the plastic people -
Here’s a reminder about one of the most important results of the past fourteen years of ancient DNA research. Northern Europe was overrun by plague-spreading steppe nomads less than 5000 years ago, causing an almost complete population replacement.
It’s a 1492 event. Everybody knows that us Northern Europeans aren’t the original inhabitants of North America. But we aren’t even the original inhabitants of Northern Europe.
@mrundkvist I've always had this feeling of "home" whenever I see a photo of Mongolia...
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Here’s a reminder about one of the most important results of the past fourteen years of ancient DNA research. Northern Europe was overrun by plague-spreading steppe nomads less than 5000 years ago, causing an almost complete population replacement.
It’s a 1492 event. Everybody knows that us Northern Europeans aren’t the original inhabitants of North America. But we aren’t even the original inhabitants of Northern Europe.
all human history is this
waves of this or that people, moving into new lands, replacing or mingling. little trickles or inundations
but there's always remnants, going back to the original wave: neanderthal DNA persists in us
so it goes with every other former population
neat tidbit:
in the philippines there are the original aeta. they live in the mountains, while the coastlines are malay
in madagascar, the original malay live in the mountains and the bantu dominate the coasts
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@mrundkvist I knew about a lot of migrations everywhere but I didn't know that there was such an early and desastrous plague wave.
Does it mean that the newcomers were more resistant against the plague?@NatureMC
The hypothesis is that the plague originated in Central Asia and spread to Europe and that the Western Steppe Herders were slightly resistant to the plague. The plague either killed off so many Europeans that the WSH could move in or spread to Europe because of the migrating WSH. Or maybe both.
@mrundkvist
