If your website doesn’t load in under 3 seconds* on an expensive phone in The Software Town, you did it wrong.
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@fugueish if one needs 100mb of JavaScript to load a static website, I need one's organization to go tools down and have a long, uncomfortable talk.
@emma @fugueish We need to be talking about the *reason* it "needs" 100 MB of js, and that reason is deeply ideological:
The industry has decided that it's not just their entitlement but their job to do what's essentially implementing thier own version of what a browser should be, using its own proprietary document formats built around an RPC API with their server, that runs within your browser, rather than delivering a semantic document in a standardized format for your browser to let you interact with.
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@ben I'm assuming we're not counting the cloudflare bot check in the loading times
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@dalias @robinsyl it makes several requests to another company's servers in order to produce that page
serving a page on almost any website is significantly more expensive than the bandwidth used to transfer the data
most websites are not 100% static, and even for websites that are, disk cache is not infinite
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@dalias @robinsyl it makes several requests to another company's servers in order to produce that page
serving a page on almost any website is significantly more expensive than the bandwidth used to transfer the data
most websites are not 100% static, and even for websites that are, disk cache is not infinite
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@emma @fugueish We need to be talking about the *reason* it "needs" 100 MB of js, and that reason is deeply ideological:
The industry has decided that it's not just their entitlement but their job to do what's essentially implementing thier own version of what a browser should be, using its own proprietary document formats built around an RPC API with their server, that runs within your browser, rather than delivering a semantic document in a standardized format for your browser to let you interact with.
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If your website doesn’t load in under 3 seconds* on an expensive phone in The Software Town, you did it wrong. Yes, this means every social media company and every newspaper are doing it wrong. I said what I said
*The true quality bar is 0.5 seconds, but I’m feeling unreasonably generous today
@fugueish https://jessie.nabein.me is about 1.5-2s with DOH DNS
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@dalias @ben sorry to butt in like this, but i'm really curious as to what the correct way to get e.g. a profile picture off of steam would be without making a request to steam's servers, unless it's "don't use steam for user accounts", which would be rather odd for a mod based off of steam's ip. maybe there's been some miscommunication here?
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@dalias @ben sorry to butt in like this, but i'm really curious as to what the correct way to get e.g. a profile picture off of steam would be without making a request to steam's servers, unless it's "don't use steam for user accounts", which would be rather odd for a mod based off of steam's ip. maybe there's been some miscommunication here?
@snailerotica @ben I don't know the big picture you have in mind, but I assume what you'd do to do this right is pulling the picture when you first process something to do with the account in question, then keeping it cached, and doing some sort of async staleness check (or better, push-based update, if their API gave you that option) if it's accessed in the future and the age is beyond some threshold to check for changes.
For an example of this all being done very well, see how fediverse works. I'm able to see and interact with posts from any instance that's not blocked by mine, but looking at a post by someone on another instance doesn't make a request to their servers. It's either already federated to mine via push due to follow relationships or boost, etc., or it's just pulled on the first access then cached. Either way there are no expensive requests to 3p servers that take place as part of each request.
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@snailerotica @ben I don't know the big picture you have in mind, but I assume what you'd do to do this right is pulling the picture when you first process something to do with the account in question, then keeping it cached, and doing some sort of async staleness check (or better, push-based update, if their API gave you that option) if it's accessed in the future and the age is beyond some threshold to check for changes.
For an example of this all being done very well, see how fediverse works. I'm able to see and interact with posts from any instance that's not blocked by mine, but looking at a post by someone on another instance doesn't make a request to their servers. It's either already federated to mine via push due to follow relationships or boost, etc., or it's just pulled on the first access then cached. Either way there are no expensive requests to 3p servers that take place as part of each request.
@dalias @snailerotica what's happening here is that the stats website displays stats and profile data that are stored on someone's Steam account. it caches them for 5 minutes, but LLM scrapers don't follow any kind of human-like pattern when browsing; they just flood the server with requests for random pages
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If your website doesn’t load in under 3 seconds* on an expensive phone in The Software Town, you did it wrong. Yes, this means every social media company and every newspaper are doing it wrong. I said what I said
*The true quality bar is 0.5 seconds, but I’m feeling unreasonably generous today
@fugueish
When I worked on storefront navigation software, even fucking _BassPro_ SLA'd 83 milliseconds at the 90th percentile.
Giving people three digits of milliseconds is already surrender. -
If your website doesn’t load in under 3 seconds* on an expensive phone in The Software Town, you did it wrong. Yes, this means every social media company and every newspaper are doing it wrong. I said what I said
*The true quality bar is 0.5 seconds, but I’m feeling unreasonably generous today
@fugueish I went to a meetup of local web developers. At some point I told them my web site URL, and a couple of them pulled it up on their phones, and asked how on earth I got it to load so quickly and what hosting I was using to get that kind of performance. ($4 a month VPS, Debian and caddy.)
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@fugueish
When I worked on storefront navigation software, even fucking _BassPro_ SLA'd 83 milliseconds at the 90th percentile.
Giving people three digits of milliseconds is already surrender. -
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@fugueish I went to a meetup of local web developers. At some point I told them my web site URL, and a couple of them pulled it up on their phones, and asked how on earth I got it to load so quickly and what hosting I was using to get that kind of performance. ($4 a month VPS, Debian and caddy.)
@mathew Yep
“How did I get it so fast? I did way less work” -
If your website doesn’t load in under 3 seconds* on an expensive phone in The Software Town, you did it wrong. Yes, this means every social media company and every newspaper are doing it wrong. I said what I said
*The true quality bar is 0.5 seconds, but I’m feeling unreasonably generous today
@fugueish yep I want the WWW of 1997 with the ISP uplinks of 2026
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If your website doesn’t load in under 3 seconds* on an expensive phone in The Software Town, you did it wrong. Yes, this means every social media company and every newspaper are doing it wrong. I said what I said
*The true quality bar is 0.5 seconds, but I’m feeling unreasonably generous today
@fugueish I'd say every website that doesn't work on Lynx Browser over Iridium or Tor Browser with disabled JavaScript over 2G should be banned from existing it's developers forced to fix it!
- Anything else is too much lenience for Enshittification…
- Seriously, stuff like FrogFind should be unnecessary to begin with!!!
#Sarcasm #Commentary #LynxBrowser #TorBrowser #2G #Tor #Iridium #Narrowband #FrogFind #JS #JavaScript #AntiJS #AntiJavascriptAction #Malware #Bloatware #Enshittification
- Anything else is too much lenience for Enshittification…
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If your website doesn’t load in under 3 seconds* on an expensive phone in The Software Town, you did it wrong. Yes, this means every social media company and every newspaper are doing it wrong. I said what I said
*The true quality bar is 0.5 seconds, but I’m feeling unreasonably generous today
@fugueish If your website doesn’t load in under 2 seconds on an a shitty 4 year old phone phone in anywhere I have at least 3 bars of 5G, you did it wrong.
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@fugueish If your website doesn’t load in under 2 seconds on an a shitty 4 year old phone phone in anywhere I have at least 3 bars of 5G, you did it wrong.
@fugueish I am also being generous with 3 bars of 5G and only a 4 year old device.
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J jwcph@helvede.net shared this topic
for "website development" and not just writing and graphic design.
