CONTEXT
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@GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce @blogdiva What's your source on permanent destruction and toxicity? I'm pretty sure that isn't true.
Batteries can renewable capture equipment (wind and solar) can be recycled. Relatively easily, in fact; for batteries, we can grind them and re-extract the useful elements easier than we can pull them out of the ground, and for generators, we can tear them down and refurb them.
I don't dispute that initial extraction costs money and lives (though I compare it to fossil fuel extraction in that regard). But we can't recapture the output of a fossil fuel reaction and turn it back into fossil fuel; we can grind a battery and make a new battery, over and over, for a very long time before the elements stop cooperating.
@mark @GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce @blogdiva This is my understanding too.
We can recycle old batteries to make new ones. It is cheaper to do this than digging more materials, once we get enough supply of old batteries.
Battery tech is also getting better. We are on the cusp of being able to replace lithium with sodium for electricity grid storage, and sodium doesn't require mining in the way lithium does.
The key here is that all the extraction for EVs is a one-time (mostly) operation that will replace fossil fuel extraction, which is not a one-time operation.
And before anyone thinks I'm a EV shill: I hate all cars. I think they should be completely outlawed from cities and heavily reduced elsewhere. Am I going to get my wish in my lifetime? I very much doubt it. EVs are an improvement over internal combustion in every material way.
Once we have EVs, we need to fix the toxic tires and road markings. Then onward.
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OK, it’s only a lie. If what you’ve been told about renewables is true.. let me emphasize that the companies who were gushing over renewables are the worst polluting most environmentally destructive industries in the world which is the mining sector.
You are going to believe companies that are no different than big oil and no different than big tobacco at face value value.
How well has that traditionally worked out?
I don't believe those companies for a second. The one I believe who was gushing over renewables is a Youtuber!
CC: @benroyce@mastodon.social @brad@1040ste.net @blogdiva@mastodon.social -
And if you're going to then say oh, but you're gonna leave the disabled to die because they can't move. I want to cut off that argument in advance and saying that the disabled in Amsterdam have no mobility issues the city has solve that problem, so don't even try or if you're beginning to think that way, please go look at how the Dutch handled mobility for the disabled
@GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @benroyce @blogdiva
I’m sorry Ghost, you’re wrong. You’ve been mislead by oil companies to confuse things like power and energy.
Try this video. But stop at the end-credits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ9nt2ZeGM
For the rest of my people, watch the post-roll and put it on loop.
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@adriano @GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @blogdiva
the arguments of toxic perfectionists like GhostOnTheHalfShell are not just foolishness in isolation
the real problem is how like here they go after EVs
they have to attack *better* because it's not *perfect*
!?
you see this constantly all over the left
these people are rat poison
in pursuit of purity, they fight better
thereby helping the status quo: the fossil fuel industry
they are an agent provocateur shill or a moron
@adriano @GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @blogdiva @benroyce
Sadly, the people (in the US) for whom EVs would be an improvement are those least likely to afford them.I am thinking of all the gasoline cars that are owned by low-income people, that are paid off, sometimes barely run, and are, in some cases, actually being held together with duct tape and wire.
So all the middle-class+ folks can argue about EVs, while the rest of us just fill up our cars when we can afford to, and buy another roll of duct tape, and/or wire.*
* yes, one hose in my 2013 car is held together with duct tape. The parts and labor expense to replace it are out of my price range. I doubt I will ever own an EV, nor will many of my neighbors.
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@jwcph @benroyce @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva That is not what I said. It is the logic of your statement though. It is clear that government policies or even evil religions which encourage population growth and ban contraception are aiming in the opposite direction partly because the dominant economic models are derived from agrarian societies where more people could produce more so growth arose from growing population. Simple really.
STOP
Mama Gaya is enough.
the death cult of settler colonialist, extractivist capitalism is the problem.
there's a reason LAND REDISTRIBUTION WARS started after the wars of independence across all the Américas.
no nation can survive when capitalists control all the land. you cant cash crop ecosystems into profits without genocide and ecocide.
kill capalism to save us all.
malthusianism is eugenics & racist. deprogram that shit.
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malthusianism is eugenics which is always founded on racism.
if you agree with anything malthusian, i would suggest going into cult deprogramming therapy.
malthusianism ―like eugenics, like racism, like capitalism― is a death cult.
@blogdiva I don't usually go for absolutes, but this one I'm fairly certain proves true in practice. @mark @anthropy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce
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@adriano @GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @blogdiva @benroyce
Sadly, the people (in the US) for whom EVs would be an improvement are those least likely to afford them.I am thinking of all the gasoline cars that are owned by low-income people, that are paid off, sometimes barely run, and are, in some cases, actually being held together with duct tape and wire.
So all the middle-class+ folks can argue about EVs, while the rest of us just fill up our cars when we can afford to, and buy another roll of duct tape, and/or wire.*
* yes, one hose in my 2013 car is held together with duct tape. The parts and labor expense to replace it are out of my price range. I doubt I will ever own an EV, nor will many of my neighbors.
@c_merriweather @adriano @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva @benroyce I bought a nissan leaf 2013 about half a year ago. less than 70k km on the odometer, 90% original battery capacity. Cost me 4.5k. Saved me over 1k in gasoline so far
I think people aren't looking enough at the second hand EV market tbqh, which I get is scary cuz batteries and all, but that's not nearly as bad as it's been once. I kinda wish battery replacement services were more prevalent, because I know I you can triple the kWh.
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@benroyce @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva there is also the consideration wrt the effects of vehicle exhaust. Unless the power plants are coal, that's a straight up win for the carbon cycle.
Of course the batteries have rare chemicals and extractive companies still come into play. But they are there for vehicles regardless.
@draNgNon @benroyce @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva And cobalt is used for refining gasoline as well as in lithium batteries
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@blogdiva
Didn't Maggie Thatcher sell them a significant part of our stake in the North Sea? -
malthusianism is eugenics which is always founded on racism.
if you agree with anything malthusian, i would suggest going into cult deprogramming therapy.
malthusianism ―like eugenics, like racism, like capitalism― is a death cult.
@blogdiva @mark @anthropy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce
Sure "Malthusianism" starts with what everyone thinks is popularly known but then it descends into boring old statistics, economics, efforts to prevent starvation through parliament and conversations with Riccardo.
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STOP
Mama Gaya is enough.
the death cult of settler colonialist, extractivist capitalism is the problem.
there's a reason LAND REDISTRIBUTION WARS started after the wars of independence across all the Américas.
no nation can survive when capitalists control all the land. you cant cash crop ecosystems into profits without genocide and ecocide.
kill capalism to save us all.
malthusianism is eugenics & racist. deprogram that shit.
@blogdiva @ArchaeoIain @jwcph @benroyce
that’s right. Capitalism is the global supply chain. To break capitalism, de couple from the global supply chain. This is the most important problem to address.
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@c_merriweather @adriano @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva @benroyce I bought a nissan leaf 2013 about half a year ago. less than 70k km on the odometer, 90% original battery capacity. Cost me 4.5k. Saved me over 1k in gasoline so far
I think people aren't looking enough at the second hand EV market tbqh, which I get is scary cuz batteries and all, but that's not nearly as bad as it's been once. I kinda wish battery replacement services were more prevalent, because I know I you can triple the kWh.
Folks like me don't have $ to buy "new" cars, EV or not. Survivor's benefits are at poverty level.
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Folks like me don't have $ to buy "new" cars, EV or not. Survivor's benefits are at poverty level.
@c_merriweather @anthropy @adriano @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva
sure but that's a different problem
massive subsidies for EV purchase would help
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Folks like me don't have $ to buy "new" cars, EV or not. Survivor's benefits are at poverty level.
@c_merriweather At that income level, these problems are best solved through clean public transport. I know it's very hard to achieve in the USA outside large cities, but that's happening right now here in Santiago de Chile: the bus fleet is modernizing with electric vehicles which are also much more comfortable. @anthropy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva @benroyce
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@GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @benroyce @blogdiva
I’m sorry Ghost, you’re wrong. You’ve been mislead by oil companies to confuse things like power and energy.
Try this video. But stop at the end-credits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ9nt2ZeGM
For the rest of my people, watch the post-roll and put it on loop.
have watched that video. nowhere in it does he actually address the environmental destruction that comes from exponential growth extracting, aluminum, copper, silver, nickel, and lithium.
To extract and purify the resources is necessary to transform power generation requires destroying the planet in the process.
The resource extraction and refinement industry is no different than big oil.
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@c_merriweather At that income level, these problems are best solved through clean public transport. I know it's very hard to achieve in the USA outside large cities, but that's happening right now here in Santiago de Chile: the bus fleet is modernizing with electric vehicles which are also much more comfortable. @anthropy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva @benroyce
@adriano @c_merriweather @anthropy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva
as an american, i envy the commitment to mass transit in other countries. the usa is really pathetic on this topic
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have watched that video. nowhere in it does he actually address the environmental destruction that comes from exponential growth extracting, aluminum, copper, silver, nickel, and lithium.
To extract and purify the resources is necessary to transform power generation requires destroying the planet in the process.
The resource extraction and refinement industry is no different than big oil.
Furthermore, he uses a false equivalence between lead recycling in lead acid batteries other technologies like PV or wind turbines.
These are not equivalent artifacts in terms of recycling. Building panels or turbines from new resources is less expensive than using recycled resources.
Extracting one material from these devices, usually precludes extracting other materials from these devices.
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Folks like me don't have $ to buy "new" cars, EV or not. Survivor's benefits are at poverty level.
@c_merriweather @adriano @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva @benroyce I 100% get how tough that is, I've been there too. But these days second hand EVs are as cheap as normal cars, with less maintenance and fuel costs. only issue is range on those older models but if you don't need more than 100km between charges they're more than fine. And for less than 500 you can build an offgrid solar setup to charge it a bit with (2.5kw panels + offgrid inverter + 500Wh battery). I wish I had this back then tbh
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@adriano @c_merriweather @anthropy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva
as an american, i envy the commitment to mass transit in other countries. the usa is really pathetic on this topic
@benroyce On the other hand, if they get it done in large metropolises like NYC, it will do *a lot*, I think. @c_merriweather @anthropy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva
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Furthermore, he uses a false equivalence between lead recycling in lead acid batteries other technologies like PV or wind turbines.
These are not equivalent artifacts in terms of recycling. Building panels or turbines from new resources is less expensive than using recycled resources.
Extracting one material from these devices, usually precludes extracting other materials from these devices.
On top of this, you cannot build solar panels without burning down old growth forest because you need the carbon from them in order to manufacture PV. This is one reason why Chinese PV are so inexpensive. They burn up tons of carbon and tons of old growth forest in order to manufacture these things..
The blind assertion that this is somehow less damaging is an assertion made without evidence.
