hey so about your favorite boy hank green.
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt oh it's all bad. we're not saying any of it is good. we understand how any disagreement is going to come off that way, but we agree strongly with the emotion of what you're saying
@ireneista @noiseician @zzt that's great! so please do withdraw your claims that you made in direct response to a carefully weighed statement on an area that actually I know a fucking lot about
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@ireneista @noiseician @zzt that's great! so please do withdraw your claims that you made in direct response to a carefully weighed statement on an area that actually I know a fucking lot about
@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt beg pardon? we are fucking agreeing with you about everything except one specific thing about how this is framed. could you please re-read what we wrote and tell us which part you are asking us to retract?
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt if literally everything is a cult, then nothing is a cult, and we can't plan how to stop cults, because we'll be trying to say "let's identify the costly signals so we can figure out how to interrupt them" or whatever, and somebody will come along and say "it's all a cult!" and that will be the end of the discussion
@ireneista @noiseician @zzt right, so you said that responding directly to me, so what percentage are you putting that as applying to what I wrote 0%, 100% or something else?
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@ireneista @noiseician @zzt right, so you said that responding directly to me, so what percentage are you putting that as applying to what I wrote 0%, 100% or something else?
@ireneista @noiseician @zzt i mean, don't suggest vague play it down moderation in response to a post full of specifics
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@ireneista @noiseician @zzt i mean, don't suggest vague play it down moderation in response to a post full of specifics
@davidgerard so the sequence of events from our perspective is that @zzt said something we agree with, and we said so. @noiseician replied to us dragging things in the direction of more emotional, less oureasoned, along a specific pattern we've identified as important to counterbalance, so we did so. we didn't notice you were @'d in by the original QT at this point, and would have removed you if we had, sorry about that. >
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt if literally everything is a cult, then nothing is a cult, and we can't plan how to stop cults, because we'll be trying to say "let's identify the costly signals so we can figure out how to interrupt them" or whatever, and somebody will come along and say "it's all a cult!" and that will be the end of the discussion
@ireneista @davidgerard @noiseician literally anything isn’t a cult, we’re discussing a specific thing here. or trying to, at least.
you may not like TESCREAL as a term and that’s fair, it’s a clumsy-ass acronym, but as people like David and myself are actively researching this subculture and it’s something that’s very actively hurting people, I think a little bit of definitional fuzziness can be excused. I don’t know if this is your first rodeo in dealing with an active cult, but refusing to call a spade a spade due to your own lack of knowledge will lead to people getting hurt.
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@ireneista @noiseician @zzt i mean, don't suggest vague play it down moderation in response to a post full of specifics
@davidgerard so the sequence of events from our perspective is that @zzt said something we agree with, and we said so. @noiseician replied to us dragging things in the direction of more emotional, less oureasoned, along a specific pattern we've identified as important to counterbalance, so we did so. we didn't notice you were @'d in by the original QT at this point, and would have removed you if we had, sorry about that. >
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@ireneista @davidgerard @noiseician literally anything isn’t a cult, we’re discussing a specific thing here. or trying to, at least.
you may not like TESCREAL as a term and that’s fair, it’s a clumsy-ass acronym, but as people like David and myself are actively researching this subculture and it’s something that’s very actively hurting people, I think a little bit of definitional fuzziness can be excused. I don’t know if this is your first rodeo in dealing with an active cult, but refusing to call a spade a spade due to your own lack of knowledge will lead to people getting hurt.
@zzt @davidgerard @noiseician we adore the term. it's a great term. we endorse it strongly. we agree that there are multiple cults under the TESCREAL umbrella. we apologize that it came off as if we were saying something else; we have been attempting to agree with all that from the start. see our replies to David for further details, we don't have the energy to say it again.
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@noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I do! It's "More Everything Forever" by Adam Becker and it's the book I was failing to write over 2018-2021!
@davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt looks like it might be similar to this!
https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-nerd-reich-silicon-valley-fascism-and-the-war-on-democracy-gil-dur-n/a6f6f0dce1150339
Added to TBR pileI was mostly thinking of a shareable article for an overview but yeah, seems too sprawling to contain
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@ireneista marketing cult
@zzt @davidgerard -
@ireneista @davidgerard @noiseician literally anything isn’t a cult, we’re discussing a specific thing here. or trying to, at least.
you may not like TESCREAL as a term and that’s fair, it’s a clumsy-ass acronym, but as people like David and myself are actively researching this subculture and it’s something that’s very actively hurting people, I think a little bit of definitional fuzziness can be excused. I don’t know if this is your first rodeo in dealing with an active cult, but refusing to call a spade a spade due to your own lack of knowledge will lead to people getting hurt.
@zzt @ireneista @noiseician precisely why I clarified that HELL YES THIS IS A CULT AND A CLUSTER OF CULTS AND BASICALLY NONE OF IT IS NOT AND I HAVE A TON OF SPECIFICS HERE
and then I get claims that uhh calling things cults is bad for unclear reasons?
the fuck
and especially when the thread starter is about MY FUCKIN POST, jesus
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@davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt looks like it might be similar to this!
https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-nerd-reich-silicon-valley-fascism-and-the-war-on-democracy-gil-dur-n/a6f6f0dce1150339
Added to TBR pileI was mostly thinking of a shareable article for an overview but yeah, seems too sprawling to contain
@noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt oh yeah that's a great one
also crosses into the neoreactionary element in silicon valley, which is extremely closely related to the TESCREALS (i.e. the Bay Area cluster of both are buddies and hang out with each other and the TESCREALs are substantially massive race scientists)
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@zzt @ireneista @noiseician precisely why I clarified that HELL YES THIS IS A CULT AND A CLUSTER OF CULTS AND BASICALLY NONE OF IT IS NOT AND I HAVE A TON OF SPECIFICS HERE
and then I get claims that uhh calling things cults is bad for unclear reasons?
the fuck
and especially when the thread starter is about MY FUCKIN POST, jesus
@davidgerard @zzt @noiseician yes, we wish we'd engaged with a lot more care, for sure. really sorry about that.
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@xan @cyberquixote @zzt Albacore > albatross - good swap for the image.
@jmccyoung @xan @cyberquixote @zzt The albacore is now canon.
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@noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt oh yeah that's a great one
also crosses into the neoreactionary element in silicon valley, which is extremely closely related to the TESCREALS (i.e. the Bay Area cluster of both are buddies and hang out with each other and the TESCREALs are substantially massive race scientists)
@davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt tescrealism is always inextricable from eugenics. if you believe the entire universe can be calculated and optimized then you also believe that the differences between people can be calculated and optimized.
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@davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt tescrealism is always inextricable from eugenics. if you believe the entire universe can be calculated and optimized then you also believe that the differences between people can be calculated and optimized.
@emenel @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt yep. not just TESCREAL but AI and indeed the study of "intelligence" since the 1800s. see the recent film Ghost In The Machine where this is its entire point. I thought "steady on, AI's full of racism sure, but you're saying that's its point?" and yeah, it lands its claim
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@davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I don't have a bookmarked piece of writing that's like a tour of why EAs (LessWrong, and the rest) are fkin bananas
Especially for people who outright reject the notion of the 'TESCREAL bundle'.
I wish I had one.
But also I imagine it's just too complicated, messy and bizarre to explain very succinctly
@noodlemaz @davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I can't disagree with all of this in general; specifically, I can nitpick with bits and bobs. transhumanism "shouldn't" be a "philosophy" so much as just the notion that humanity is a malleable characteristic not intrinsic to the flesh and blood of a human, basically as a simple corollary to neurological functionalism.
similarly, none of these should ever really be treated like "core, driving philosophies" but rather as essentially side effects of humans handling the advancement of technology. when they become prescriptive and moralistic, they lose sight of meaningful rationality and become the "rationality" of the crazy pants cuckoo brained folks (Ziz etc).
and also, similarly, these should not be "bundled" together any more than any other broad operating concepts should. Echoing carnap and quine a bit, every advancement and every test confirms and disconfirms the entire framework, model, and method of science. All of it is therefore up for modification or deletion. (some of it likely oughta be already, particularly EA, given that it may best serve as some kind of self help guideline).
but, BASICALLY, TESCREAL as a bundle is weirdo nonsense touted by essentialist bigots and sociopaths of various kinds, and has no intrinsic value worth defending itself.
ahem, in my opinion.
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@davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt tescrealism is always inextricable from eugenics. if you believe the entire universe can be calculated and optimized then you also believe that the differences between people can be calculated and optimized.
@emenel @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt It’s SO weird to me that people who believe consciousness can be uploaded into a computer *also* think that genes are destiny.
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@emenel @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt It’s SO weird to me that people who believe consciousness can be uploaded into a computer *also* think that genes are destiny.
@michaelgemar @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt genes are just a computer to them. it’s just a calculation.
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@michaelgemar @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt genes are just a computer to them. it’s just a calculation.
@emenel @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt Right, but if consciousness is just computation, then any uploaded mind could be upgraded at will. No one’s capabilities would be immutable.
