hey so about your favorite boy hank green.
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@davidgerard @noiseician @zzt if literally everything is a cult, then nothing is a cult, and we can't plan how to stop cults, because we'll be trying to say "let's identify the costly signals so we can figure out how to interrupt them" or whatever, and somebody will come along and say "it's all a cult!" and that will be the end of the discussion
@ireneista @davidgerard @noiseician literally anything isn’t a cult, we’re discussing a specific thing here. or trying to, at least.
you may not like TESCREAL as a term and that’s fair, it’s a clumsy-ass acronym, but as people like David and myself are actively researching this subculture and it’s something that’s very actively hurting people, I think a little bit of definitional fuzziness can be excused. I don’t know if this is your first rodeo in dealing with an active cult, but refusing to call a spade a spade due to your own lack of knowledge will lead to people getting hurt.
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@ireneista @noiseician @zzt i mean, don't suggest vague play it down moderation in response to a post full of specifics
@davidgerard so the sequence of events from our perspective is that @zzt said something we agree with, and we said so. @noiseician replied to us dragging things in the direction of more emotional, less oureasoned, along a specific pattern we've identified as important to counterbalance, so we did so. we didn't notice you were @'d in by the original QT at this point, and would have removed you if we had, sorry about that. >
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@ireneista @davidgerard @noiseician literally anything isn’t a cult, we’re discussing a specific thing here. or trying to, at least.
you may not like TESCREAL as a term and that’s fair, it’s a clumsy-ass acronym, but as people like David and myself are actively researching this subculture and it’s something that’s very actively hurting people, I think a little bit of definitional fuzziness can be excused. I don’t know if this is your first rodeo in dealing with an active cult, but refusing to call a spade a spade due to your own lack of knowledge will lead to people getting hurt.
@zzt @davidgerard @noiseician we adore the term. it's a great term. we endorse it strongly. we agree that there are multiple cults under the TESCREAL umbrella. we apologize that it came off as if we were saying something else; we have been attempting to agree with all that from the start. see our replies to David for further details, we don't have the energy to say it again.
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@noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I do! It's "More Everything Forever" by Adam Becker and it's the book I was failing to write over 2018-2021!
@davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt looks like it might be similar to this!
https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-nerd-reich-silicon-valley-fascism-and-the-war-on-democracy-gil-dur-n/a6f6f0dce1150339
Added to TBR pileI was mostly thinking of a shareable article for an overview but yeah, seems too sprawling to contain
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@ireneista marketing cult
@zzt @davidgerard -
@ireneista @davidgerard @noiseician literally anything isn’t a cult, we’re discussing a specific thing here. or trying to, at least.
you may not like TESCREAL as a term and that’s fair, it’s a clumsy-ass acronym, but as people like David and myself are actively researching this subculture and it’s something that’s very actively hurting people, I think a little bit of definitional fuzziness can be excused. I don’t know if this is your first rodeo in dealing with an active cult, but refusing to call a spade a spade due to your own lack of knowledge will lead to people getting hurt.
@zzt @ireneista @noiseician precisely why I clarified that HELL YES THIS IS A CULT AND A CLUSTER OF CULTS AND BASICALLY NONE OF IT IS NOT AND I HAVE A TON OF SPECIFICS HERE
and then I get claims that uhh calling things cults is bad for unclear reasons?
the fuck
and especially when the thread starter is about MY FUCKIN POST, jesus
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@davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt looks like it might be similar to this!
https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-nerd-reich-silicon-valley-fascism-and-the-war-on-democracy-gil-dur-n/a6f6f0dce1150339
Added to TBR pileI was mostly thinking of a shareable article for an overview but yeah, seems too sprawling to contain
@noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt oh yeah that's a great one
also crosses into the neoreactionary element in silicon valley, which is extremely closely related to the TESCREALS (i.e. the Bay Area cluster of both are buddies and hang out with each other and the TESCREALs are substantially massive race scientists)
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@zzt @ireneista @noiseician precisely why I clarified that HELL YES THIS IS A CULT AND A CLUSTER OF CULTS AND BASICALLY NONE OF IT IS NOT AND I HAVE A TON OF SPECIFICS HERE
and then I get claims that uhh calling things cults is bad for unclear reasons?
the fuck
and especially when the thread starter is about MY FUCKIN POST, jesus
@davidgerard @zzt @noiseician yes, we wish we'd engaged with a lot more care, for sure. really sorry about that.
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@xan @cyberquixote @zzt Albacore > albatross - good swap for the image.
@jmccyoung @xan @cyberquixote @zzt The albacore is now canon.
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@noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt oh yeah that's a great one
also crosses into the neoreactionary element in silicon valley, which is extremely closely related to the TESCREALS (i.e. the Bay Area cluster of both are buddies and hang out with each other and the TESCREALs are substantially massive race scientists)
@davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt tescrealism is always inextricable from eugenics. if you believe the entire universe can be calculated and optimized then you also believe that the differences between people can be calculated and optimized.
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@davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt tescrealism is always inextricable from eugenics. if you believe the entire universe can be calculated and optimized then you also believe that the differences between people can be calculated and optimized.
@emenel @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt yep. not just TESCREAL but AI and indeed the study of "intelligence" since the 1800s. see the recent film Ghost In The Machine where this is its entire point. I thought "steady on, AI's full of racism sure, but you're saying that's its point?" and yeah, it lands its claim
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@davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I don't have a bookmarked piece of writing that's like a tour of why EAs (LessWrong, and the rest) are fkin bananas
Especially for people who outright reject the notion of the 'TESCREAL bundle'.
I wish I had one.
But also I imagine it's just too complicated, messy and bizarre to explain very succinctly
@noodlemaz @davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I can't disagree with all of this in general; specifically, I can nitpick with bits and bobs. transhumanism "shouldn't" be a "philosophy" so much as just the notion that humanity is a malleable characteristic not intrinsic to the flesh and blood of a human, basically as a simple corollary to neurological functionalism.
similarly, none of these should ever really be treated like "core, driving philosophies" but rather as essentially side effects of humans handling the advancement of technology. when they become prescriptive and moralistic, they lose sight of meaningful rationality and become the "rationality" of the crazy pants cuckoo brained folks (Ziz etc).
and also, similarly, these should not be "bundled" together any more than any other broad operating concepts should. Echoing carnap and quine a bit, every advancement and every test confirms and disconfirms the entire framework, model, and method of science. All of it is therefore up for modification or deletion. (some of it likely oughta be already, particularly EA, given that it may best serve as some kind of self help guideline).
but, BASICALLY, TESCREAL as a bundle is weirdo nonsense touted by essentialist bigots and sociopaths of various kinds, and has no intrinsic value worth defending itself.
ahem, in my opinion.
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@davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt tescrealism is always inextricable from eugenics. if you believe the entire universe can be calculated and optimized then you also believe that the differences between people can be calculated and optimized.
@emenel @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt It’s SO weird to me that people who believe consciousness can be uploaded into a computer *also* think that genes are destiny.
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@emenel @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt It’s SO weird to me that people who believe consciousness can be uploaded into a computer *also* think that genes are destiny.
@michaelgemar @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt genes are just a computer to them. it’s just a calculation.
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@michaelgemar @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt genes are just a computer to them. it’s just a calculation.
@emenel @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt Right, but if consciousness is just computation, then any uploaded mind could be upgraded at will. No one’s capabilities would be immutable.
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@emenel @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt Right, but if consciousness is just computation, then any uploaded mind could be upgraded at will. No one’s capabilities would be immutable.
@michaelgemar @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt yeah. that’s the point… “i know kung fu” and etc
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@ireneista @noiseician @zzt it's not that amorphous and it's closer knit than its marketing pretends
like I used to say "the LessWrong-originated subculture" but "TESCREAL" is a term that means the same thing
do you have particular good bits you're thinking of? cos substantially it's a sea of rancid
@davidgerard @ireneista @noiseician @zzt Ahh, memories of Operation Clambake. And repeatedly shouting XENU every time I passed the Scientology outlet on Tottenham Court Road, London.
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@davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt tescrealism is always inextricable from eugenics. if you believe the entire universe can be calculated and optimized then you also believe that the differences between people can be calculated and optimized.
@emenel @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt I think I can hear Benoit Mandelbrot and Nic Taleb screaming off in the distance...
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@bms @noodlemaz @davidgerard @noiseician @ireneista @zzt ong, that's all true and I hate it
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@michaelgemar @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt yeah. that’s the point… “i know kung fu” and etc
@emenel @michaelgemar @davidgerard @noodlemaz @noiseician @ireneista @zzt It does engage appeal to novelty much in its attempt to attract, and this often favours the young. I lent Transhumanism a keen ear around 1999 in the last throes of my Bachelor's degree. That faded quickly mostly due to life getting really busy in other ways. Even so, I'd probably read enough alternative thinking and philosophy to be dissuaded from it, as well as lived experience contradicting its tenets. Now, here we are... I even named my not-yet-pressed-into-service phone "Ryle" for the reason that mind just might require embodiment.
