Generative AI is a Faustian bargain.
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Well, getting over the finish line does not make you a better bike rider, it's the actions between the start and finish that refine the skill. AI would be like doing a race on an e-bike.
When it comes to the term "shipping", I do not really understand it.
I wonder where does it the coding end and shipping starts.
Pressing submit is not a skill, after all.@wilkuu @benlockwood it absolutely makes you a better biker. I'm not sure how far how far this bike analogy can get us here but there's more to life and career that dishing out code. Yesterday I learned about cloudflare tunnels just because I had to ship something which in turn lead me to learn about fortifying my local network with techniques I would have never bothered with.
Most of human knowledge is transferable, we are not paperclip factory machines — we're people.
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@benlockwood electrically powered tools are a faustian bargain. Every use of them weakens you...
Electric drill diminishes your use of muscles that could've been used for hammering nails manually
Muscles are not your brain, you give up your humanity when you use AI.
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@jack @benlockwood I have ADHD and I don't use AI, so I think it's kinda disingenuous to suggest that we would all also benefit from AI.
If anything, ADHD people should stay even further away from AI.
Sounds like you already have other ways of managing ADHD that work for you. That's cool.
I don't think it's the right assistive device for every case.
In my case, though, it works very well. I did have a stage early on where I'd get distracted playing with the AI, but once that got boring, no problems.
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Generative AI is a Faustian bargain. Every use of it weakens you. Maybe you occasionally save a few minutes, but you are diminished for it. With each use you are further from your human potential.
@benlockwood Frankly, I've gotten to the point to tolerate AI. You want crappy unmaintainable code on your codebase? Fine, just not on mine. I don't own your crappy code , the company does.
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@wilkuu @benlockwood it absolutely makes you a better biker. I'm not sure how far how far this bike analogy can get us here but there's more to life and career that dishing out code. Yesterday I learned about cloudflare tunnels just because I had to ship something which in turn lead me to learn about fortifying my local network with techniques I would have never bothered with.
Most of human knowledge is transferable, we are not paperclip factory machines — we're people.
A part of getting better at programming is learning how to get more done with less code. Using AI removes the incentive to learn how to create this leverage.
I agree that typing less is a benefit.
But most people learned math by doing basic addition and multiplication a bunch, it works the same with programming. -
@benlockwood That's a heck of a claim when some of us are using AI as a prosthesis for things like poor executive function or ADHD.
I have an AI assistant I've set up to have context about all my projects & their status.
If I have a bad brain day where I'm foggy/can't focus, I can ask the AI to help me figure out what I should be working on.
That makes me MORE myself, not less.
And anyway, I'll take a handshake with Lucifer over Yahweh any day. The Devil has integrity.
@jack it was hard to read this without hearing echoes of all the ways using accessibility tools and adaptations are treated as “accepting weakness,” “giving up”, etc even though I’m sure that’s not what @benlockwood was thinking about
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A part of getting better at programming is learning how to get more done with less code. Using AI removes the incentive to learn how to create this leverage.
I agree that typing less is a benefit.
But most people learned math by doing basic addition and multiplication a bunch, it works the same with programming.@wilkuu @benlockwood now you're conflating two things: memorization and growth.
For growth we can already agree that diversification and exploration are very important which AI tools absolutely enable.
For memorization blind repetition is not the way to go either. The most effective memorization strategy rn is spaced repetition and you might hit that with writing same code over and over but you can also hit it (even better) by writing the same code ever 2 days or even less often.
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Generative AI is a Faustian bargain. Every use of it weakens you. Maybe you occasionally save a few minutes, but you are diminished for it. With each use you are further from your human potential.
@benlockwood@ecoevo.social la peau de chagrin, the one ring…
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Sounds like you already have other ways of managing ADHD that work for you. That's cool.
I don't think it's the right assistive device for every case.
In my case, though, it works very well. I did have a stage early on where I'd get distracted playing with the AI, but once that got boring, no problems.
Managing ADHD is a skill, just like one's health or fitness. By offloading the development of this skill to AI, you're worsening your symptoms over time.
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@benlockwood I don't think that's necessarily true.
Sure if you don't ride the bike every day you're worse bike rider but finishing races also makes you a better bike rider.
I'm a senior dev and consider myself a good'ish coder and while LLMs do make me worse at memorizing APIs I ship so much more which on it's own a very useful skill to train.
At the end of the day it's just another computer. If you use the one that's in your skull as well then you'll be just perfectly fine.
@wraptile @benlockwood I don’t know man, it feels a bit sad that to compare your brain to « just another computer », or that shipping more code would have anything to do with realizing your potential on this earth.
When it comes to growing as a person, we all know that the quest is what really matters.
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@wilkuu @benlockwood now you're conflating two things: memorization and growth.
For growth we can already agree that diversification and exploration are very important which AI tools absolutely enable.
For memorization blind repetition is not the way to go either. The most effective memorization strategy rn is spaced repetition and you might hit that with writing same code over and over but you can also hit it (even better) by writing the same code ever 2 days or even less often.
I feel like I am underestimating how repetitive the codebases you work on are.
But personally, I get enough novel problems in programming where there is little repetition and I get to learn new patterns.I am quite young so I might have not reached the ceiling you might be encountering.
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@wraptile @benlockwood I don’t know man, it feels a bit sad that to compare your brain to « just another computer », or that shipping more code would have anything to do with realizing your potential on this earth.
When it comes to growing as a person, we all know that the quest is what really matters.
@Minos @benlockwood your brain is absolute a computer _but_ also more than a computer.
And I didn't say "ship more code" but _create more_ to the very end where it's more than just exploration of an idea but a full product. Finishing stuff matters. Diversity of experience matters.
AI tools absolutely great for this unless you don't know how to use them or too weak willed/unfortunate enough to get caught by sub-optimal paths which is absolutely a valid and real issue for some.
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Managing ADHD is a skill, just like one's health or fitness. By offloading the development of this skill to AI, you're worsening your symptoms over time.
@corigan01 @benlockwood If I were resorting to it constantly, I might agree, but I'm not. It's a last resort for really bad days. (And to be clear, I'm not a classic ADHD case; I'm borderline but with other shit going on, as well).
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@jack it was hard to read this without hearing echoes of all the ways using accessibility tools and adaptations are treated as “accepting weakness,” “giving up”, etc even though I’m sure that’s not what @benlockwood was thinking about
Oh, for sure.
We're not used to thinking of mental stuff as benefiting from assistive devices or prostheses the way we are with physical disabilities.
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Muscles are not your brain, you give up your humanity when you use AI.
It's a metaphore... Also, you should stop using the contact list in your phone, since if you don't spend time remembering phone numbers, you give up your humanity.
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It's a metaphore... Also, you should stop using the contact list in your phone, since if you don't spend time remembering phone numbers, you give up your humanity.
@tylnesh @benlockwood I understand its a metaphor, however, I am saying it misses the point of the argument being made.
I don't agree the contacts list on my phone and an AI are the same magnitude of thing.
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AI != Riding a bike
@corigan01 @wraptile @benlockwood AI = Self-Driving Car where you lose your skills and abilities because you hand it all over to a machine.
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@corigan01 @wraptile @benlockwood AI = Self-Driving Car where you lose your skills and abilities because you hand it all over to a machine.
@rasterweb @corigan01 @benlockwood maybe in 10 years or so but you still need to do plenty of driving right now to get anywhere.
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It's a metaphore... Also, you should stop using the contact list in your phone, since if you don't spend time remembering phone numbers, you give up your humanity.
@tylnesh @corigan01 @benlockwood Confusing memorization with actual learning is part of what has gotten us in the mess we are in now.
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@rasterweb @corigan01 @benlockwood maybe in 10 years or so but you still need to do plenty of driving right now to get anywhere.
@wraptile @corigan01 @benlockwood Alternately you can ride a bike to many places.
