This is the future those who push for age verification want for us.
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@Gargron I wonder if there is a future ahead of us in which all forms of identification documentation are so devalued as to be useless.
@Gargron
Is there also in that future a requirement for a difficult to obtain high value form of identification required to participate in elections? -
@anderslund What I'm trying to say (probably not well, it's hard to put into words) is that having your altID leaked/stolen doesn't feel functionally different to me than, say, this passport leak.
It's an ID masking your ID, but still has the whole value of any set of credentials.
Of course, as you said, physical possession of the device... which is also true of any credentials.
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@pantheonw All I can think of that would be left if documentation was devalued, would be biometrics.
And *that's* a whole 'nother can of worms.
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@harib_murshidi@mastodon.social
Yes, I agree with you there, but I also feel I must and want to hold politicians and governments accountable. Proper legal frameworks must be established for large social networks. It must be possible to hold these networks accountable much more easily and quickly.
@Gargron@mastodon.social@mischi2000 @Gargron Depends on what kind of accountability we are asking, some of the 'parental concerns' remind me of the Satanic Panic, #heavymetal scare of the 80s when the PMRC (Parent Music Resource Centre) in the US started a witch-hunt against musicians because some parents decide to sue Ozzy Osbourne for 'Suicide Solution', Judas Priest for 'Better by You Better than Me' (which was a cover of another band, they did not even wrote the song)
No social network can filter out creeps !
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@anderslund What I'm trying to say (probably not well, it's hard to put into words) is that having your altID leaked/stolen doesn't feel functionally different to me than, say, this passport leak.
It's an ID masking your ID, but still has the whole value of any set of credentials.
Of course, as you said, physical possession of the device... which is also true of any credentials.
@solitha @Gargron I'd say that the ID solution we use in Denmark to identify to banks, public authorities and also private companies in some cases - MitID ("MyID") has had few issues. It is a 2FA soultion, where the 2nd factor is either an app or a physical device. AltID is less secure, but also provides less information to clients.
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@mischi2000 @Gargron Depends on what kind of accountability we are asking, some of the 'parental concerns' remind me of the Satanic Panic, #heavymetal scare of the 80s when the PMRC (Parent Music Resource Centre) in the US started a witch-hunt against musicians because some parents decide to sue Ozzy Osbourne for 'Suicide Solution', Judas Priest for 'Better by You Better than Me' (which was a cover of another band, they did not even wrote the song)
No social network can filter out creeps !
@harib_murshidi@mastodon.social
No, of course there shouldn't be a witch hunt.
But there must be a way to stop bullying, self-harm, fake profiles, and things like that as quickly as possible.
Only then will social networks be safe for young people.
And believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
It should be clear to everyone that you can't filter out the weird people and creeps.
But you can create other conditions.
@Gargron@mastodon.social -
@solitha @Gargron I'd say that the ID solution we use in Denmark to identify to banks, public authorities and also private companies in some cases - MitID ("MyID") has had few issues. It is a 2FA soultion, where the 2nd factor is either an app or a physical device. AltID is less secure, but also provides less information to clients.
@anderslund I guess I'm just feeling like there are no good answers. Any security created by humans can be broken by humans.
And we've arrived in this world where one's individual identity is so valuable... and yet, third parties who mishandle that information are slapped on the wrist. Meanwhile, that data has slipped any containment.
There is so much more money behind stealing the data than there is in protecting it. We're steadily losing the battle.
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@harib_murshidi@mastodon.social
No, of course there shouldn't be a witch hunt.
But there must be a way to stop bullying, self-harm, fake profiles, and things like that as quickly as possible.
Only then will social networks be safe for young people.
And believe me, I know what I'm talking about.
It should be clear to everyone that you can't filter out the weird people and creeps.
But you can create other conditions.
@Gargron@mastodon.socialWhat exactly is a 'fake profile' ? When the internet was introduced to kids earlier on, it was specifically considered the most important rule that you should not divulge any real information and put anything like that on the internet and now we are going into the opposite direction !
And if somebody does harass someone at some social media network, they are responsible... even at this place some creep can creep in and try to doxxx or blackmail someone, i
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RE: https://post.lurk.org/@shibacomputer/116827981116605348
This is the future those who push for age verification want for us.
@Gargron anything included in a database gets leaked eventually because it cannot be adequately secured.
The old paper system was fairly secure. The occasional fire would destroy data but, at least it wouldn't leak it.
It was not impossible to access private personal data maliciously but, it was far more time consuming.
What is left after all identifying information is leaked? It's no longer viable for identification...
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@Gargron I wonder if there is a future ahead of us in which all forms of identification documentation are so devalued as to be useless.
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@Gargron In denmark, Datastyrelsen (the state office caring for data) released an "altID" app, which can be used as an ID, IRL or online. After creation, data stays on your device, and what clients get is an age or identity verification, and you get to choose what to share. They failed to make it open source, but given it does what the say it does, it at least better than scanning passports etc, I believe. It is derived from an EU model afaik. And I was able to install it on my google-free /e/os fairphone. FWIW.
@anderslund
In NL we have @yivi_privacybydesign, which is even on F-Droid. I've yet to encounter something that uses it (so it's not on my phone anymore), but I'm happy we have something decent ready in case age verification becomes mandatory.
@Gargron -
@anderslund
In NL we have @yivi_privacybydesign, which is even on F-Droid. I've yet to encounter something that uses it (so it's not on my phone anymore), but I'm happy we have something decent ready in case age verification becomes mandatory.
@Gargron@kainisenni @yivi_privacybydesign @Gargron Yes, yivi. In Denmark, the app is prepared for buying alcohol, tobacco and such, and can display a QR code (confirming that you are old enough) that can be scanned in stores, for example. I havent tried to use it yet, it will take some time I believe
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@theeclecticdyslexic I thought about that, but... that's a process.
You'd have to prove you're you to the government again to deprecate your old ID and receive a new one.
Then you'd have to update every institution using the deprecated ID. And then they can oopsie leak it again.
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J jwcph@helvede.net shared this topic
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@mischi2000 @Gargron Just leave parenting to parents, the world does not need 'nanny states'.
@harib_murshidi @mischi2000 @Gargron
The discussion should school transfer customs in addition to knowledge is a long one, but I believe philosophers in general are for it? At least in the hegelian tradition.
Admittedly the relationship between school (which is often an indoctination tool of the state) and parents/village is a tricky one. Still can't be sidelined with just generic reference to "nanny states". Particularly as nannies are a good thing, right?
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@mischi2000 @Gargron Depends on what kind of accountability we are asking, some of the 'parental concerns' remind me of the Satanic Panic, #heavymetal scare of the 80s when the PMRC (Parent Music Resource Centre) in the US started a witch-hunt against musicians because some parents decide to sue Ozzy Osbourne for 'Suicide Solution', Judas Priest for 'Better by You Better than Me' (which was a cover of another band, they did not even wrote the song)
No social network can filter out creeps !
@harib_murshidi @mischi2000 @Gargron
IMHO USA is a bad example on social panics, seeing as that's the local culture going all the way back to the literal witch hunts.
As such it's not really the state/federation doing the hunts, they're just reflecting societal customs instead of rising above them (which was Hegel's idea, iirc).
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RE: https://post.lurk.org/@shibacomputer/116827981116605348
This is the future those who push for age verification want for us.
@Gargron "Leak" is a strange way to say "Sold by Elon"
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What exactly is a 'fake profile' ? When the internet was introduced to kids earlier on, it was specifically considered the most important rule that you should not divulge any real information and put anything like that on the internet and now we are going into the opposite direction !
And if somebody does harass someone at some social media network, they are responsible... even at this place some creep can creep in and try to doxxx or blackmail someone, i
@harib_murshidi @mischi2000 @Gargron
>What exactly is a 'fake profile' ? When the internet was introduced [- -] it was specifically considered the most important rule that you should not divulge any real information ..
Yeah, and the dotcom-crash was caused in large part by the inability for advertisers to target who was seeing the ads.
So the web2.0 got advertisements tied to profiles that were linked if not to ID, then at least to a large dossier of likes, dislikes, and spending habits.
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@Gargron This is one of my major worries with the OSA. There's no real regulation of the companies who are providing age verification services. A lot aren't clear on information they retain or for how long. We're building vast databases of personal information with little transparency on things like security around it. We're going to see some enormous data leaks in the coming years.
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@harib_murshidi @mischi2000 @Gargron
The discussion should school transfer customs in addition to knowledge is a long one, but I believe philosophers in general are for it? At least in the hegelian tradition.
Admittedly the relationship between school (which is often an indoctination tool of the state) and parents/village is a tricky one. Still can't be sidelined with just generic reference to "nanny states". Particularly as nannies are a good thing, right?
@iju @mischi2000 @Gargron Nannies are a good thing ?! Maybe in your culture perhaps, and in the US there were 'Senate Hearings' over the 'lyrics of music' , Dee Snider of the Heavy Metal band 'Twisted Sister' attended them as well as 'Frank Zappa' and at that point both the Republicans and Democrats were on the same page over that (Al Gore was part of the hearings and his wife back then Tipper Gore was a founder of PMRC)
PMRC gave us this !
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What exactly is a 'fake profile' ? When the internet was introduced to kids earlier on, it was specifically considered the most important rule that you should not divulge any real information and put anything like that on the internet and now we are going into the opposite direction !
And if somebody does harass someone at some social media network, they are responsible... even at this place some creep can creep in and try to doxxx or blackmail someone, i
@harib_murshidi@mastodon.social
There are all sorts of fake profiles, ranging from fake profiles to outright impersonations.
All I can tell you is that it cost my parents tens of thousands of euros in court and legal fees to have a profile deleted on meta-platforms that impersonated me in the worst possible way.
I was 13 years old at the time and suddenly exposed to things I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
I don't want to say any more about it now.
@Gargron@mastodon.social
