👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993.
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Most of your reply didn't seem to be describing threats to FOSS. (Using/not using LLMs, etc.) The only statements I could see maybe being a threat to FOSS was this:
> LLMs encourage people to work more in silos without collaboration and use LLMs instead of collaborators
Are you suggesting existing contributors will exit FOSS because of their LLM use? I don't understand how these two things are related. And getting back to @ossguy 's post, it looks like quite the opposite: there are people *entering* FOSS due to LLMs.
> Codebases and ecosystems and communities diverge.
Through what mechanism?
I'm suggesting, as the article we're replying to points out, that it's now easier for people to go "eh, I don't need FOSS collaborators, I have LLMs and look how many lines of code I produce per day!". And conversely, projects developed heavily by LLM will not be welcoming environments to people who don't want to work with LLMs. This creates silos. -
I'm suggesting, as the article we're replying to points out, that it's now easier for people to go "eh, I don't need FOSS collaborators, I have LLMs and look how many lines of code I produce per day!". And conversely, projects developed heavily by LLM will not be welcoming environments to people who don't want to work with LLMs. This creates silos.And the problem isn't just *new projects* that are LLM-written, it's the LLM-cordyceps taking over the bodies of existing projects and driving out developers who want to work with humans and don't have the complexity-and-debt-and-NIH tolerance of LLMs. (And solving that isn't as simple as forking, because it's possible one or both groups don't have the critical mass that they would have had together.)
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I think software is not at all immune, in the sense that just as LLMs can produce grammatically correct sentences that make no sense and have no factual basis, they can produce code that *compiles* but is utterly alien to what any sensible human with taste would write.
@josh @firefly_lightning @silverwizard @ossguy @bkuhn @karen @wwahammy
> but is utterly alien to what any sensible human with taste would write.
This implies no humans are doing code review. If it's crap code then it goes nowhere and collapse is avoided.
And yes, I'm aware of some projects that are utterly YOLOing everything into their codebases, and I think the results will speak for themselves, in either outcome! Either they flame out with no damage to larger FOSS, or the LLMs become so good that we get beautiful FOSS code and proprietary software becomes a thing of the past. Limping along in between seems unlikely to me.
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@josh @firefly_lightning @silverwizard @ossguy @bkuhn @karen @wwahammy
> but is utterly alien to what any sensible human with taste would write.
This implies no humans are doing code review. If it's crap code then it goes nowhere and collapse is avoided.
And yes, I'm aware of some projects that are utterly YOLOing everything into their codebases, and I think the results will speak for themselves, in either outcome! Either they flame out with no damage to larger FOSS, or the LLMs become so good that we get beautiful FOSS code and proprietary software becomes a thing of the past. Limping along in between seems unlikely to me.
> This implies no humans are doing code review. If it's crap code then it goes nowhere and collapse is avoided.
No, it implies no humans *without the aid of LLMs* are reviewing *how easy it would be to maintain without LLMs*. And that's an easy state to get into.
I think the "in between" outcome seems much more likely to me than it does to you: projects can limp along for a long time, and be popular enough to discourage competition or hold onto users for a while.
Diseases that are contagious before people are symptomatic are especially hazardous. LLM-written technical debt takes time to become symptomatic. The epidemic is time-delayed from the initial outbreak, and exponentials are hard to see from the middle. -
> You can prevent it by asking LLM tho add comments and check those comments
You really can't; it is not anywhere close to that simple. The problem isn't just line-level, it's (among many other things) systemic design complexity, tolerance for technical debt, unbounded (except by token budget) capacity to duplicate or reinvent rather than reuse, none of the programmer's virtue of "laziness", and a substantial multiplier on the hubris.
@josh @silverwizard @ossguy @bkuhn @karen @kees @wwahammy ok so basically your point is that someone hires a bunch of machines to do a lot of work, but then when the machines leaves you are stuck with all the stuff the machines made which you cannot maintain alone, because it's too much work.
And that's so true.
It's the same with math and a calculator, but a calculator isn't subscription based. Which in my opinion is the real issue. -
> This implies no humans are doing code review. If it's crap code then it goes nowhere and collapse is avoided.
No, it implies no humans *without the aid of LLMs* are reviewing *how easy it would be to maintain without LLMs*. And that's an easy state to get into.
I think the "in between" outcome seems much more likely to me than it does to you: projects can limp along for a long time, and be popular enough to discourage competition or hold onto users for a while.
Diseases that are contagious before people are symptomatic are especially hazardous. LLM-written technical debt takes time to become symptomatic. The epidemic is time-delayed from the initial outbreak, and exponentials are hard to see from the middle.@josh @firefly_lightning @silverwizard @ossguy @bkuhn @karen @wwahammy
> The epidemic is time-delayed from the initial outbreak, and exponentials are hard to see from the middle.
I agree with this, and I expect to see some evidence of slop-code in real software (especially proprietary) in the coming years. Where I differ, though, is that I see *benefits* being time delayed too. I just don't think any of this is going to be all bad or all good.
If the cordyceps made some people zombies and made other people able to fly. And we could shift the ratio through education and experience.
And getting cordyceps in the first place required boiling all our oceans.
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@josh @silverwizard @ossguy @bkuhn @karen @kees @wwahammy ok so basically your point is that someone hires a bunch of machines to do a lot of work, but then when the machines leaves you are stuck with all the stuff the machines made which you cannot maintain alone, because it's too much work.
And that's so true.
It's the same with math and a calculator, but a calculator isn't subscription based. Which in my opinion is the real issue.@MisterMaker @josh @silverwizard @ossguy @bkuhn @karen @wwahammy
I am reminded of Kernighan’s Law: because debugging is twice as hard as writing code, writing code as cleverly as possible makes you, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
So I really don't want the LLM writing clever code.
But yes, now we have to rent "thinking".
All the more reason to have FOSS LLM models to resist rentier capitalism. -
@bkuhn @ossguy I have to admit that I am pretty surprised by this post. Not in terms of being welcoming to newcomers, which is something I have advocated for and made the center of all of my FOSS work.
However, the post says the following:
> I encourage all of us in the FOSS community to welcome the new software developers who've adopted these tools, investigate their motivations, and seriously consider cautiously and carefully incorporating their workflows with ours.
While the sentence which follows acknowledges that "seasoned software developers understand the benefits and limitations of LLM-assisted coding tools", there are two big things I expected at least acknowledged:
- Many maintainers are facing *burnout* over the situation. However, I agree that addressing this in terms of norms is something we can consider
- The biggest thing I am surprised to not see addressed at all is the licensing and copyright implications(cotd)
welcome the new software developers who’ve adopted these tools
how about No
incorporating their workflows with ours
yea No
get a backbone maybe?
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@bkuhn @silverwizard @wwahammy @cwebber I am not sure if I'm a known enough entity to post this here really, but I think it's worth pointing out that if you allow it into the community, who within the community are you pushing out? Because it would be unrealistic to think that accepting LLM into the community won't actively be pushing a portion of the community away. The other thing I think useful to consider is the reasons why it would push people out and to consider those reasons too, because I'm concerned that the fear of not be welcoming is overcoming the desire to have a safe community? Idk if that resonates so please feel free to yell me outta here if I'm overstepping.....
@firefly_lightning @silverwizard @wwahammy @cwebber @bkuhn I think we're seeing a bifurcation similar to the Free vs Open divide.
I *do* believe ethical LLMs are _possible_ and would still be useful. None of the current ones meet any of those ethical requirements well enough though. Their *utility* however is real. Outright rejection is a valid stance; but some are likely to be "pragmatic", just like they were about "Open" and weaker licenses.
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(2/5) … In https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ ,
Denver's key points are: we *have* to (a) be open to *listening* to people who want to contribute #FOSS with #LLM-backed generative #AI systems, & (b) work collaboratively on a *plan* of how we can solve the current crisis.Nothing ever got done politically that was good when both sides become more entrenched, refuse to even concede the other side has some valid points, & each say the other is the Enemy. …
@bkuhn @wwahammy @cwebber There seems to be some oversimplification happening here; I don't think people using LLMs are the enemy but as @silverwizard said by analogy (assuming I have been mentioned for the retoot, which I understand but find a bit inquisitive BTW), I do think LLMs are the perfect medium for destroying free software and free software communities (let alone the rest of the world).
It is easy to say that we should not be entrenched, but my main issue with this position is that there is no form of "meeting in the middle" that works here, apart from caving in. (continued)
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@bkuhn @wwahammy @cwebber There seems to be some oversimplification happening here; I don't think people using LLMs are the enemy but as @silverwizard said by analogy (assuming I have been mentioned for the retoot, which I understand but find a bit inquisitive BTW), I do think LLMs are the perfect medium for destroying free software and free software communities (let alone the rest of the world).
It is easy to say that we should not be entrenched, but my main issue with this position is that there is no form of "meeting in the middle" that works here, apart from caving in. (continued)
@bkuhn @wwahammy @cwebber @silverwizard I do not want to read LLM output, full stop. There are people who want to me to read it. What can I compromise here?
I do not want to demonize LLM users, as some want to genuinely contribute and hope to improve the software. But their red line is that they want to use their LLM to do so, as they are (usually) "having so much fun with it doing previously impossible stuff".
The truth is that nobody wants to discuss the topic, as everyone is getting tired of this shit, which is why adding a notice stating that the project rejects any LLM-tainted contributions is probably the best to avoid wasting everyone's time.
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@MisterMaker @josh @silverwizard @ossguy @bkuhn @karen @wwahammy
I am reminded of Kernighan’s Law: because debugging is twice as hard as writing code, writing code as cleverly as possible makes you, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
So I really don't want the LLM writing clever code.
But yes, now we have to rent "thinking".
All the more reason to have FOSS LLM models to resist rentier capitalism.@kees @josh @silverwizard @ossguy @bkuhn @karen @wwahammy It just needs to output more code than there are humans that can maintain it and we lost.
So basically as long as those LLM are free or almost free, we are doomed.
We can have OpenSource LLM we just have to give up copyright. Kinda of issue tho. -
https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ now reflects what I thought was posted hours ago. Sorry for the confusion.
You all got an insight into how much you have to draft & redraft to consider difficult policy questions. Anyone who works in policy drafted a dozen things that were not quite right before getting it right.
Anyway, if you still think it's terrible, I refer you to all my other posts from this evening.
@ossguy @josh @wwahammy @linux_mclinuxface @burnoutqueen @cwebber @silverwizard @mjw @mmu_man
@bkuhn @ossguy @josh @wwahammy @linux_mclinuxface @burnoutqueen @silverwizard @mjw @mmu_man Thanks for the replies. Last night I posted my frustrations and then went to see a movie with a friend and then promptly fell asleep. I see the discourse kept moving afterwards.
I continue to have thoughts, which I will collect and distribute either here or in a blog post later. But I appreciate the replies.
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@bkuhn @wwahammy @cwebber @silverwizard I do not want to read LLM output, full stop. There are people who want to me to read it. What can I compromise here?
I do not want to demonize LLM users, as some want to genuinely contribute and hope to improve the software. But their red line is that they want to use their LLM to do so, as they are (usually) "having so much fun with it doing previously impossible stuff".
The truth is that nobody wants to discuss the topic, as everyone is getting tired of this shit, which is why adding a notice stating that the project rejects any LLM-tainted contributions is probably the best to avoid wasting everyone's time.
@mathieui @wwahammy @cwebber @silverwizard Would it be different if someone copy-pasted a few separate snippets from Stack Overflow? It feels like if people are unwilling to understand what their code does, that's one thing, but making a hard line even before we know that is perhaps too far.
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@bkuhn @ossguy @josh @wwahammy @linux_mclinuxface @burnoutqueen @silverwizard @mjw @mmu_man Thanks for the replies. Last night I posted my frustrations and then went to see a movie with a friend and then promptly fell asleep. I see the discourse kept moving afterwards.
I continue to have thoughts, which I will collect and distribute either here or in a blog post later. But I appreciate the replies.
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One of *many* arguments against: codebases substantially contributed to by LLMs will develop a tolerance for complexity that is not conducive to being maintained by anything *other* than an LLM.
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@bkuhn @wwahammy @cwebber There seems to be some oversimplification happening here; I don't think people using LLMs are the enemy but as @silverwizard said by analogy (assuming I have been mentioned for the retoot, which I understand but find a bit inquisitive BTW), I do think LLMs are the perfect medium for destroying free software and free software communities (let alone the rest of the world).
It is easy to say that we should not be entrenched, but my main issue with this position is that there is no form of "meeting in the middle" that works here, apart from caving in. (continued)
@mathieui
I agree FOSS projects should make their own policies. Some will (& should!) have a zero-tolerance abstinence policy on any contribution that has even been slightly interacted with any LLM-backed generative AI systems.
Yet, even among SFC projects, some asked us to help them create a more nuanced policy.
Should we just kick those projects out of SFC, or have a nuanced, humans-only conversation?
It's ok if you do not want to join that, but we'd also be glad to have you.
Cc: @tito @ossguy -
@mathieui
I agree FOSS projects should make their own policies. Some will (& should!) have a zero-tolerance abstinence policy on any contribution that has even been slightly interacted with any LLM-backed generative AI systems.
Yet, even among SFC projects, some asked us to help them create a more nuanced policy.
Should we just kick those projects out of SFC, or have a nuanced, humans-only conversation?
It's ok if you do not want to join that, but we'd also be glad to have you.
Cc: @tito @ossguy@bkuhn @mathieui @tito @ossguy i think it is good to have a nuanced conversation, but still be stern in that this unethical technology will not be allowed. the ethical issues of it are just too big, it would almost be as bad as allowing proprietary software in, i would say
education is important, and it is important to first educate and give some time before making a decision, but still be stern about it, as this is a deep ethical issue where we should be having a zero-tolerance
zero-tolerance here would mean not allowing the project to endorse or use any genai. if usage of it is snuck in, try and revert it to the best ability possible. if it was used before, do the same. but having some genai commits in is not that important, to me
of course, mistakes may be made. we should not be scrutinizing commits very heavily and going on witch hunts. but genai usage, for code, assets, writing, docs and anything else, must not be allowed
what's important to me is the stance of the project going forward. to be against it completely -
@wwahammy @silverwizard @firefly_lightning @cwebber @ossguy yeah, "great question! come over to crime scene 2 for an answer perhaps!" has never been a good look.
it was presented as human written text. The human who signs their name to it should be able to answer text-based questions about it in written form.
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… https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993. I was on USENET extensively then; I confirm the disruption was indeed similar. I urge you to read his essay, think about it, & join Denver, me, & others at the following datetimes…
$ date -d '2026-04-21 15:00 UTC'
$ date -d '2026-04-28 23:00 UTC'
…in https://bbb-new.sfconservancy.org/rooms/welcome-llm-gen-ai-users-to-foss/join
#AI #LLM #OpenSource@bkuhn Ok commenting on the revisions.
I don't think there are billions of new software developers. I think that's unfair, but it's less important.
I think also that this revision still does not engage with a core question of *how* would one deal with this community. marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=17… This is my go to example of "someone shows up and adds LLM code". This is a person in clear violation of policy.
I know the article is an attempt to bring people into discussion - but it fails slightly - most obvious - it sets some times and doesn't necessarily take people's time into account. Everyone in this thread has said it's a bad time. Which I mean, isn't great. But more important - it presupposes that accepting people using LLMs is a goal, so the discussion seems like it already has a conclusion and now wants to discuss next steps - but hasn't demonstrated its conclusion. Maybe I'm wrong but that's how I'm understanding it.
