People have strange heroic ideas about the Viking Period.
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@mrundkvist haha, det är tur vi är två om det
@helenaviking@meraord @mrundkvist
3! *Påpekar* -
In the 790s, the Scandinavians put sails on their ships and went to raid their first literate area, England. Thus opens the so-called Viking Period, which is an artefact of written history.
Archaeology has demonstrated that before that time, the Scandies had been raiding *each other* at shorter range with rowing ships for at least 1100 years.
From Hjortspring c. 340 BC to Salme c. AD 750.
@mrundkvist I would employ much caution referring to literate sources (monks) because their description of interactions with the Norse “raiders” bears little resemblance to reality.
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The more I learn about the Viking Period, the more I am secure in my conviction the best job during that period was any-job-but-Viking.
Shore based admin support sounds like a Viking Period dream job.
@Pepijn @mrundkvist
> Shore based admin support sounds like a Viking Period dream job.I read a book about the viking period and came to the opposite conclusion. The pressure of too many younger sons, scarce/poor farmland, and violent mythology drove young Norwegians, Swedes, and Danes along every coast and up even shallow rivers throughout Europe, and no coastal area was safe at the height of viking activity. Seaside towns and monastaries were sacked repeatedly and vikings raided each other.
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Some of them even migrated from what we now call Denmark, across the North Sea to what we now call East Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire, settled there and showed us how to farm.
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@Pepijn @mrundkvist And often Vikings weren't so much about directly pillaging (though they did plenty of that too), but using the threat of violence to extort money or land concessions out of local rulers. There is a phrase from Kippling about once you've paid a Danegeld, you'll never rid yourself of the Dane.
@Infoseepage @Pepijn @mrundkvist they were delighted when they were let off by the Danish courts without having to pay a scat or fine.
They said they had been let off scat-free, which has mutated into scot-free. -
In the 790s, the Scandinavians put sails on their ships and went to raid their first literate area, England. Thus opens the so-called Viking Period, which is an artefact of written history.
Archaeology has demonstrated that before that time, the Scandies had been raiding *each other* at shorter range with rowing ships for at least 1100 years.
From Hjortspring c. 340 BC to Salme c. AD 750.
@mrundkvist So no crochet way of living?
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People have strange heroic ideas about the Viking Period. The reason is that they specifically read *heroic* literature, much of it written as historical semi-fiction hundreds of years later. It's like basing your ideas about the 1100s on Walter Scott.
Viking Period archaeology in Scandinavia is deeply unheroic. It concerns itself overwhelmingly with the non-Viking activities of farmers.
Most runestones deal with modest land inheritance.
Somehow, the slave trade always gets left out or glossed over in romantic descriptions of the viking period.
Also, old Norse religion does not seem very pleasant. Arguably christianity was an improvement for most people.
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@Pepijn
The sources aren't super strong on this. But no, my impression is that you get out of the Viking game ASAP. Because you want that farm above Dublin and that Irish-speaking girl who seems to like you.@mrundkvist @Pepijn apparently under Norse law the eldest son got everything so if you weren’t him your options were limited!
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Somehow, the slave trade always gets left out or glossed over in romantic descriptions of the viking period.
Also, old Norse religion does not seem very pleasant. Arguably christianity was an improvement for most people.
@jorny @mrundkvist on the theme of Martin's start of the thread, one reason Old Norse religion seems unsympathetic is that only Christians (and very occasionally Muslims) wrote anything about it.
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@mrundkvist So what do we do with the 5 viking cities in Ireland now?
@humanhorseshoes
I would advise against sacking and burning them. -
In the 790s, the Scandinavians put sails on their ships and went to raid their first literate area, England. Thus opens the so-called Viking Period, which is an artefact of written history.
Archaeology has demonstrated that before that time, the Scandies had been raiding *each other* at shorter range with rowing ships for at least 1100 years.
From Hjortspring c. 340 BC to Salme c. AD 750.
@mrundkvist Viking mercenaries? Normandy? Eastern Europe,? Constantinople? False or the stuff of legend?
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@mrundkvist Viking mercenaries? Normandy? Eastern Europe,? Constantinople? False or the stuff of legend?
@Not_Dieter_Rot
A Scandinavian man working for the Emperor in Constantinople is no longer a Viking. -
In the 790s, the Scandinavians put sails on their ships and went to raid their first literate area, England. Thus opens the so-called Viking Period, which is an artefact of written history.
Archaeology has demonstrated that before that time, the Scandies had been raiding *each other* at shorter range with rowing ships for at least 1100 years.
From Hjortspring c. 340 BC to Salme c. AD 750.
@mrundkvist I can understand this intellectually, but spiritually I choose to believe that grim warriors set forth under black sails (possibly wearing corpsepaint if they were Norwegian) to revel in nihilistic and grim slaughter of the English, poseurs, and anyone else not trve enough to join them.
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In the 790s, the Scandinavians put sails on their ships and went to raid their first literate area, England. Thus opens the so-called Viking Period, which is an artefact of written history.
Archaeology has demonstrated that before that time, the Scandies had been raiding *each other* at shorter range with rowing ships for at least 1100 years.
From Hjortspring c. 340 BC to Salme c. AD 750.
@mrundkvist
Raiding isn't heroic.Defending is heroic!
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J jwcph@helvede.net shared this topic
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In the 790s, the Scandinavians put sails on their ships and went to raid their first literate area, England. Thus opens the so-called Viking Period, which is an artefact of written history.
Archaeology has demonstrated that before that time, the Scandies had been raiding *each other* at shorter range with rowing ships for at least 1100 years.
From Hjortspring c. 340 BC to Salme c. AD 750.
@mrundkvist Det första dokumenterade* "besöket" i Storbritannien skedde strax innan 790-talet, men var inte lika omtalat som Lindisfarne då inga munkar skadades.
Jag hade för mig att "vikingatid" var ett mer modernt namn (to viktorianskt?), och att man i engelska på den tid det begav sig pratade om "Danes" och "Norse" snarare än "Vikings", även om det ordet brukades i Skandinavien.
* https://thehistorianshut.com/2019/04/13/the-first-reported-contact-between-britain-and-vikings/
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@mrundkvist Det första dokumenterade* "besöket" i Storbritannien skedde strax innan 790-talet, men var inte lika omtalat som Lindisfarne då inga munkar skadades.
Jag hade för mig att "vikingatid" var ett mer modernt namn (to viktorianskt?), och att man i engelska på den tid det begav sig pratade om "Danes" och "Norse" snarare än "Vikings", även om det ordet brukades i Skandinavien.
* https://thehistorianshut.com/2019/04/13/the-first-reported-contact-between-britain-and-vikings/
@cunobaros
Ja, "vikingatiden" är en term uppfunnen av brittiska historiker. Den betyder "perioden då vi här på Brittiska öarna hade problem med vikingar".För Nordens del hände det förstås väldigt mycket annat här än att man organiserade vikingatåg.
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People have strange heroic ideas about the Viking Period. The reason is that they specifically read *heroic* literature, much of it written as historical semi-fiction hundreds of years later. It's like basing your ideas about the 1100s on Walter Scott.
Viking Period archaeology in Scandinavia is deeply unheroic. It concerns itself overwhelmingly with the non-Viking activities of farmers.
Most runestones deal with modest land inheritance.
@mrundkvist I fear a lot of these people with “strange heroic ideas about the Viking period” are not reading any literature at all.
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People have strange heroic ideas about the Viking Period. The reason is that they specifically read *heroic* literature, much of it written as historical semi-fiction hundreds of years later. It's like basing your ideas about the 1100s on Walter Scott.
Viking Period archaeology in Scandinavia is deeply unheroic. It concerns itself overwhelmingly with the non-Viking activities of farmers.
Most runestones deal with modest land inheritance.
@mrundkvist The Vikings were illiterate murderers and looters. Real heroes.
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@mrundkvist So no crochet way of living?
@Moonrider_acme
The Crohetungians were a huge factor in Scandinavia in the 600-1050 CE period. Unfortunately, they have left much less written and archeological evidence and totally failed to catch on in public imagination.I'm still awaiting the TV series featuring Ragnar Wingstitch and his merry men as they process flax in the summer and share stories and designs in the winter.
@mrundkvist -
@noodlemaz
Ah, yes. The game where you're a big man named Eivor. The one where Norse buildings are decorated indoors in a mid-1800s National Romantic style. Eivor Fisher, textile artist:
@mrundkvist
A true Crochetungian!
@noodlemaz
