Alright now that I shared my awesome new job, I can finally share with you how moving abroad is going.
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You know what else doesn't help? Italy
being beautiful, but every Italian expat in Amsterdam that I've ever met saying they hate it and that they would never recommend anyone to move there 🥲On the other hand, Spain
is awesome but has an insane housing crisis atm. Also unbearably hot in most places.@Gina Portugal has a big tech center, but Lisbon prices (central) are London/Brighton/Amsterdam alike, but perhaps more manageable further out of the city.
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@Nono both. It would take tens of thousands out of my pocket.
Then again, if you're able to buy a much cheaper house it might offset the cost.
@Gina @Nono as I said in a private message earlier (I repeat it here for others who may be following the thread) please don't write France off too fast if it's only because of the taxes. You get what you pay for: Having lived in a few of the countries under discussion, France was the fairest, cheapest, highest quality of life, easiest and most organized. Of course it seems to be on fire these days, but so are many of the rest at the moment.
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@Gina Currently visiting Oviedo in Asturias (from Porto, PT where I live). It seems to check a lot of the boxes you listed. (I think the airport might be a problem though https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asturias_Airport ) Asturias is beautiful with mountains, beaches, unique and wonderful cider and great food. We come here from Porto once or twice a year.
@oilyfish I'm considering visiting Northern Spain in September to check it out. But I'm leaving NL because I can't deal with the constant grey skies and rain, so I'm not sure if it'll be a good match.
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@Gina @Nono as I said in a private message earlier (I repeat it here for others who may be following the thread) please don't write France off too fast if it's only because of the taxes. You get what you pay for: Having lived in a few of the countries under discussion, France was the fairest, cheapest, highest quality of life, easiest and most organized. Of course it seems to be on fire these days, but so are many of the rest at the moment.
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You know what else doesn't help? Italy
being beautiful, but every Italian expat in Amsterdam that I've ever met saying they hate it and that they would never recommend anyone to move there 🥲On the other hand, Spain
is awesome but has an insane housing crisis atm. Also unbearably hot in most places.@Gina hopefully not to nitpick, but it seems to me that if one could expect the Italian expats to be united on one issue, they clearly all made that same decision. If the opportunity presents, might it be worth asking some of their family back home why they should have stayed?
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@oilyfish I'm considering visiting Northern Spain in September to check it out. But I'm leaving NL because I can't deal with the constant grey skies and rain, so I'm not sure if it'll be a good match.
@Gina My limited experience in Asturias is that it is nothing like as overcast as NL - even Galicia is better than NL. Another thing you might want to consider is the taxes in the different autonomous regions. It's my understanding that Galicia's might be quite high - don't know about either Asturias or Castille & Leon.
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A lot of this is contradictory as well.
I.e. wanting green nature around while having debilitating hay fever. Wanting a tech community around while not wanting to live in a big city. Able to buy a house with a garden for max €500k while close to an international airport
️Basically I want Bern without winter and hay fever, but it also has to be affordable. Sigh.
@Gina We have very similar wants, but thanks to US<->France tax treaty it's an option for us. What you're describing sounds a lot like Montpellier.
Lots of expats, University with tech, near the beach but not on it, lots of green space. Mountains not far. International airport. Well connected train system.
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@Gina hopefully not to nitpick, but it seems to me that if one could expect the Italian expats to be united on one issue, they clearly all made that same decision. If the opportunity presents, might it be worth asking some of their family back home why they should have stayed?
@travisfw fair, it might be confirmation bias.
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It doesn't help that I'm a snobby little Goldilocks that is searching for a place that feels "just right" based on:
- sunny and coastal
- green nature
- access to outdoor sports
- a tech community around
- an expat community that is not retirees
- generally educated populace around
- indoor sports such as a bouldering hall, crossfit gym and yoga studio
- able to buy a house with a garden for max €500k.
- within 1.5 hrs of an international airport
- mountains would be cool@Gina I see Liguria mentioned already. I’ve had project partners in San Remo and I’ve been there a few times - it is HOT during summer (my kids liked it though).
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@Gina @travisfw @yngmar to be honest moving from Italy to the Netherlands, I found Dutch bureaucracy way more random and confusing, particularly the fixation with strict processes that do not allow edge cases.
As to moving to Italy, I would recommend Turin/Piedmont, Bologna/Emilia or Palermo as good compromises. Avoid Milan if you want a house with a garden
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@Gina Italy has been experiencing levels of emigration similar to the late 1800s and early 1900s waves (I am also an Italian emigrant), for at least a decade.
The press and politics seem to refuse to mention it, but... the Italians that can, go away (not all, but... many).
(my info/numbers might be old/wrong, willing to hear otherwise by anyone that is better informed. Anecdotally, I know serveral that moved abroad just in my circle of friends, unrelated to my job)
@renatoram the emigration part is worrying, since it's generally educated people that leave. Also rhe bureaucracy and right wing government aren't ideal. Other than that, Italy is a dream.
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@Gina Aside from the house prices, Switzerland (I was in Lausanne) ticks those boxes.
Across the lake is still lovely (Evian), but you mentioned France was out.@vickyjo Switzerland is insanely beautiful. Also a bit too expensive and hayfeverish 🥲
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@elricofmelnibone ooh lets go to one of the abandoned villages in Italy!
@Gina @elricofmelnibone I'm in
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Milton Keynes looking ever more attractive, I imagine.
MK……
- sunny and coastal -
️ sort of, lots of lakes, maybe not so much at the moment
- green nature -️
- access to outdoor sports -️
- a tech community around -️
- an expat community that is not retirees -
- generally educated populace around -
- indoor sports such as a bouldering hall, crossfit gym and yoga studio -️
- able to buy a house with a garden for max €500k. -
- within 1.5 hrs of an international airport -️
- mountains would be cool - quite a few nice hills -
@kattekrab both solid options, more Croatia than Portugal.
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@_elena @Gina @marcel I think the biggest problem is that the only tech communities in Italy are around the biggest cities. Milan doesn’t have a nice climate IMHO, but if you manage to move around Como you can be near the lake, 30min by train from Milan and 15min from Switzerland if necessary, with two international airports nearby. Liguria is very nice but I don’t think it has a tech community. I cannot say anything meaningful on Rome or Florence.
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@_elena @Gina @marcel I think the biggest problem is that the only tech communities in Italy are around the biggest cities. Milan doesn’t have a nice climate IMHO, but if you manage to move around Como you can be near the lake, 30min by train from Milan and 15min from Switzerland if necessary, with two international airports nearby. Liguria is very nice but I don’t think it has a tech community. I cannot say anything meaningful on Rome or Florence.
@invernomut0 @_elena @marcel this. I've been to a few beautiful places around lake Como and Liguria (Sestri Levante!). While they feel like great vacation spots, it might be a bit too quiet for me to live there? Not sure though.
Edit: I've hear good things about the tech community around Bolzano, but might be cold in winter.
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You know what else doesn't help? Italy
being beautiful, but every Italian expat in Amsterdam that I've ever met saying they hate it and that they would never recommend anyone to move there 🥲On the other hand, Spain
is awesome but has an insane housing crisis atm. Also unbearably hot in most places.@Gina there is a Spain but with a twist option:
Tenerife is the largest and most-populous island of the Canary Islands, an autonomous community of Spain, located in the Atlantic Ocean off the northwestern coast of Africa.
I hope it's just because of El Niño and this isn't a permanent summer thing.
