The teacher said "In English a double negative forms a positive.
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@rzeta0 @kibcol1049 (Like "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." (Pope actually said "a little *learning* is a dangerous thing."))
@rzeta0 @kibcol1049 (But that one is usually inadvertent. Pink Floyd did it on purpose.)
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The claim I have seen is that version of "right" derives from "hwaet", which was how a spoken story was opened, loosly meaning "pay attention" or, loosely, "wake up at the back." It's how "Beowulf" opens.
@Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049 But Spanish has a similar expression: "Sí, claro", with the same negative meaning.
What happens is here irony acts, and that's why the meaning changes; it's not a syntax thing, like the double negative stuff. -
@rzeta0 @kibcol1049 apparently the double negative thing is a convention rather than a hard rule. Double negative can make a sentence more klunky (sound awkward) and it is usually better to try and remove it busy most people simply would not care.
@EF @rzeta0 @kibcol1049
A common issue in language learning/linguistics is how any given language uses double negatives and negative questions. -
@rzeta0 @kibcol1049 apparently the double negative thing is a convention rather than a hard rule. Double negative can make a sentence more klunky (sound awkward) and it is usually better to try and remove it busy most people simply would not care.
@EF @rzeta0 @kibcol1049 "I ain't not never doin' that no sir." Rolls right off the tongue.
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@EF @rzeta0 @kibcol1049
A common issue in language learning/linguistics is how any given language uses double negatives and negative questions.@HighlandLawyer @rzeta0 @kibcol1049 absolutely but in common speech, being understood and questioning where it is not clear, is easier. Am not a linguist so grammatical nuances are not my finest hour. I ask a lot of questions.
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@EF @rzeta0 @kibcol1049 "I ain't not never doin' that no sir." Rolls right off the tongue.
@fgbjr @rzeta0 @kibcol1049 no never not init!
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@fgbjr @rzeta0 @kibcol1049 no never not init!
@EF I say no nay never, no nay never no more
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@Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049 But Spanish has a similar expression: "Sí, claro", with the same negative meaning.
What happens is here irony acts, and that's why the meaning changes; it's not a syntax thing, like the double negative stuff.@eleder @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049 In German, you can express something analogous with "Ja, nee, klar" ("Yes, naa, sure"), i.e. yes-no-yes.
What do you make of that?
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@eleder @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049 In German, you can express something analogous with "Ja, nee, klar" ("Yes, naa, sure"), i.e. yes-no-yes.
What do you make of that?
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T tanyakaroli@expressional.social shared this topic
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@eleder @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049 In German, you can express something analogous with "Ja, nee, klar" ("Yes, naa, sure"), i.e. yes-no-yes.
What do you make of that?
@jack @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049
Spanish also employs expressions like "Sí, no, sí", for example when asked a negative question: "Tú no vas a traer el libro, verdad?" (You're not going to bring the book, right?) -
English is my second language and phrases like
"we don't want no education"
always bother me.
This line is using a children choir and voicing the children's point of view, playing on the double meaning.
They say they don't need education in such a clunky way, confirming that they clearly need education.
(Edit: i assume you're referring to Pink Floyd's The Wall)
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The teacher said "In English a double negative forms a positive. In some languages, though, such as Russian, a double negative is still a negative. However, there is no language wherein a double positive can form a negative."
A voice from the back of the room piped up, "Yeah, right."@kibcol1049 Reminds me of an old programmer joke:
A wife sends her programmer husband to the grocery store for a loaf of bread...
On his way out she says "and if they have eggs, get a dozen". The programmer husband returns home with 12 loaves of bread and says: "They had eggs."
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@jack @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049
Spanish also employs expressions like "Sí, no, sí", for example when asked a negative question: "Tú no vas a traer el libro, verdad?" (You're not going to bring the book, right?)@eleder @jack @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049
That's opening a totally different can of worm about how to respond to a negative question!!!
"Are you not finishing that?"
Does "yes" means "I will finish it" or "your statement is correct, I will not finish it".
I've learnt recently that French uses "si" (I will finish it) instead of "yes" (your statement is correct, i will not finish it) to answer a negative question. Native French speaker myself, I feel a bit ashamed about not knowing it before.
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@eleder @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049 In German, you can express something analogous with "Ja, nee, klar" ("Yes, naa, sure"), i.e. yes-no-yes.
What do you make of that?
@Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049 @eleder @jack reminds me of the old board game Drunter und Drüber with the Jeeiin voting card.
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The teacher said "In English a double negative forms a positive. In some languages, though, such as Russian, a double negative is still a negative. However, there is no language wherein a double positive can form a negative."
A voice from the back of the room piped up, "Yeah, right."@kibcol1049 никогда ни говори никогда
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@HighlandLawyer @rzeta0 @kibcol1049 absolutely but in common speech, being understood and questioning where it is not clear, is easier. Am not a linguist so grammatical nuances are not my finest hour. I ask a lot of questions.
@EF @rzeta0 @kibcol1049
Questions are good. Frustratingly, languages are illogical so even when you learn "the rule", you then come up against particular dialects or idioms which contradict that rule. Happy happy joy joy. (Another idiom where emphatic positive means a negative) -
@eleder @jack @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049
That's opening a totally different can of worm about how to respond to a negative question!!!
"Are you not finishing that?"
Does "yes" means "I will finish it" or "your statement is correct, I will not finish it".
I've learnt recently that French uses "si" (I will finish it) instead of "yes" (your statement is correct, i will not finish it) to answer a negative question. Native French speaker myself, I feel a bit ashamed about not knowing it before.
@Lily_and_frog @eleder @jack @Wolf_Baginski The text book English language rules are different to the current spoken language trends. The meaning is usually clear when spoken even though grammatically incorrect. I feel sorry for non English speakers.
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@kibcol1049 Reminds me of an old programmer joke:
A wife sends her programmer husband to the grocery store for a loaf of bread...
On his way out she says "and if they have eggs, get a dozen". The programmer husband returns home with 12 loaves of bread and says: "They had eggs."
@lankohr 🤭
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@eleder @jack @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049
That's opening a totally different can of worm about how to respond to a negative question!!!
"Are you not finishing that?"
Does "yes" means "I will finish it" or "your statement is correct, I will not finish it".
I've learnt recently that French uses "si" (I will finish it) instead of "yes" (your statement is correct, i will not finish it) to answer a negative question. Native French speaker myself, I feel a bit ashamed about not knowing it before.
@Lily_and_frog @eleder @jack @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049 the ambiguity is part of the fun!
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@eleder @jack @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049
That's opening a totally different can of worm about how to respond to a negative question!!!
"Are you not finishing that?"
Does "yes" means "I will finish it" or "your statement is correct, I will not finish it".
I've learnt recently that French uses "si" (I will finish it) instead of "yes" (your statement is correct, i will not finish it) to answer a negative question. Native French speaker myself, I feel a bit ashamed about not knowing it before.
@Lily_and_frog @eleder @jack @Wolf_Baginski @kibcol1049
How about the usage in Scottish or Irish English of "Is that you then?", which is asking a completely different question to the literal English words used.
🫣
