my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
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@mweiss I'm not anti-money and bartering is very much a small scale thing. I wouldn't even call what they're doing here "bartering" -- we have a poverty of vocabulary for describing this sort of thing because capitalism wants us to monetize everything (for many reasons but mostly control).
I would call this a "gifting economy" -- they're doing things for each other without "payment" but calling it a "barter" so they can discharge the onus we put on gifting having to be reciprocal/monetized.
@susankayequinn I'm not anti-money either, and I hope I didn't give the impression I thought you were.
There's also absolutely nothing wrong with "barter". But, as you noted, if there's no explicit quid pro quo it's not really barter so much as a localized form of socialism (also a fine word). Sure, "gifting economy" is a fine term, too.
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my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
@susankayequinn source (with more discussion in the comments): https://old.reddit.com/r/povertyfinance/comments/1sma3r9/bartering_with_my_neighbors_literally_saved_my/
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@mweiss the distinction is important because if you actually introduced money into this situation, it would tarnish it. Because it would monetize the friendships that are developing.
@susankayequinn it doesn't need money or formal accounting, but all friendships are economic in nature at their core. That's not a bad thing, either. If you're always giving to someone who is always taking, that's not a friendship. And many friendships fade over time because the implicit economics no longer make sense for the participants.
We've become accustomed to thinking of economics in terms of fiat currency, but fiat is merely one mechanism by which to measure. And it's "icky" in friendships because it's so quantitative rather than qualitative, and that does, as you said, tarnish the relationship. Soft accounting is more personal.
Basically, a lot of words to say "I agree", but more to say *why* I agree.
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@susankayequinn @midnite ooh! Something interesting to read. Thank you for the recommendation.
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@MichaelTBacon oh this looks great! Thank you for sharing.
@susankayequinn Take Back the Economy! has been out a while so it's a little dated but it's still a great, accessible overview to the theory body.
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my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
@susankayequinn
This sort of thing is more terrifying to capitalists and the politicians who serve them than any horror movie. -
@susankayequinn it doesn't need money or formal accounting, but all friendships are economic in nature at their core. That's not a bad thing, either. If you're always giving to someone who is always taking, that's not a friendship. And many friendships fade over time because the implicit economics no longer make sense for the participants.
We've become accustomed to thinking of economics in terms of fiat currency, but fiat is merely one mechanism by which to measure. And it's "icky" in friendships because it's so quantitative rather than qualitative, and that does, as you said, tarnish the relationship. Soft accounting is more personal.
Basically, a lot of words to say "I agree", but more to say *why* I agree.
@mweiss I'm honestly horrified by the idea that "all friendships are economic in nature" -- sounds like financialization and capitalism leaking like an oil spill into every corner of human interaction.
I would be curious to see if your thoughts about this change after reading Serviceberry.
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@mweiss I'm honestly horrified by the idea that "all friendships are economic in nature" -- sounds like financialization and capitalism leaking like an oil spill into every corner of human interaction.
I would be curious to see if your thoughts about this change after reading Serviceberry.
@susankayequinn I completely understand why you're horrified. It's that feeling of "economics = capitalism", which itself may well be that sense of capitalism being everywhere (as you described). But I promise there's more to economics than capitalism.
It's why I talked about soft accounting. We all do it, because we all have limited time and energy and we aim to spend them on things that make us feel good. That's not capitalism, nor is it formal accounting.
That said, perhaps my opinion will change. I'll keep an open mind.
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@susankayequinn I completely understand why you're horrified. It's that feeling of "economics = capitalism", which itself may well be that sense of capitalism being everywhere (as you described). But I promise there's more to economics than capitalism.
It's why I talked about soft accounting. We all do it, because we all have limited time and energy and we aim to spend them on things that make us feel good. That's not capitalism, nor is it formal accounting.
That said, perhaps my opinion will change. I'll keep an open mind.
@mweiss I'm well aware that economics does not equal capitalism, but I'm also very aware of how the language of capitalism is insidious. The metaphors we use illuminate more than we think.
I'm reading Caliban and the Witch: how capitalism used the violence of witch burnings to enclose women's bodies and take reproductive labor *out* of what we consider "the economy"... another reading suggestion more likely to tell you about my perspective than perhaps change yours
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https://wandering.shop/@susankayequinn/116421671475505952 -
my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
@susankayequinn Good to see people cutting out the middle man, being social, and helping each other out.
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"anarchism" has its own history as well
I see the terms all being thrown around equivalently as scare words and that's their main function, divorced actually from any history (the people using them are often relying on mythologizing of history anyway)
@susankayequinn @eestileib anarchists havent been the ones betraying communists, arresting and executing them, and forming authoritarian dictatorships in the name of the people
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@susankayequinn I am so happy to be in walking distance of the north side shop of Seattle ReCreative for craft supplies. (Also well situated on two bus routes)
@jmeowmeow @susankayequinn Ha! I mentioned that shop specifically in my "Refugium Starter Kit" as an example of addressing multiple things at once, since they work with the tribal eco-restoration programs, the school district for art programs, etc.
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my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
@susankayequinn at this point I only try to get haircuts from my neighbors. So far they've insisted on no payment but I did maintain a community vermicompost bin for a while (until the roaches moved in and wouldn't leave) -
@susankayequinn I'm not anti-money either, and I hope I didn't give the impression I thought you were.
There's also absolutely nothing wrong with "barter". But, as you noted, if there's no explicit quid pro quo it's not really barter so much as a localized form of socialism (also a fine word). Sure, "gifting economy" is a fine term, too.
@mweiss @susankayequinn Or just “being neighbors”, in the very best Mr. Rogers way
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J jwcph@helvede.net shared this topic
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my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
@susankayequinn oh, that’s lovely.
I have a theory, and it is that the “formal” economy will often displace an informal economy like this. But only the formal economy is measured. So, when we see GDP grow, the ledger only accounts the part that goes up. The part that is destroyed is ignored. And might well be of much greater value.
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my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
@susankayequinn this is the kind of stuff capitalists are truly terrified of. Keep doing them!
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@susankayequinn oh, that’s lovely.
I have a theory, and it is that the “formal” economy will often displace an informal economy like this. But only the formal economy is measured. So, when we see GDP grow, the ledger only accounts the part that goes up. The part that is destroyed is ignored. And might well be of much greater value.
@benjohn yes and... now let's talk about reproductive labor and how that's excluded from the "formal" economy altogether
That GDP is the measure and what GDP excludes is core to patriarchy which is core to capitalism.
(so yes to what you're saying and it's really key to the whole dismantling of the brutality of the world and building a better one)
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my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
@susankayequinn awesome!
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now imagine this happening everywhere... imagine the mindset shift it would create... imagine how radically it would improve people's lives, all while still existing side-by-side with capitalism (for now). Imagine the pressures it would put on a system that's brutal and exploitive when they can actually get their needs met outside of that system.
@susankayequinn When I came to France, this was the normal every-day-life. It was normal neighbourhood. Also with expensive machines: we shared them, everybody had something for a different purpose to lend.
Then suddenly everybody bought every machine and didn't lend it anymore. Money destroyed people. Neighbourhood life became rare.
Now we have apps to ask unknown people to barter, and they work mostly only in towns. Even young people are feeling lonely. It slowly comes back, too slowly.
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my dude has rediscovered the commons and I could not be happier for them
Urbanites discovering the rural default
