This is a very disturbing picture, with incredibly high numbers.
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RE: https://mstdn.social/@amydiehl/116398872299706764
This is a very disturbing picture, with incredibly high numbers. Perhaps I am naiive, but I found the figures here shocking.
@neil
Been thinking about this all morning.There is a lot to unpack in this report, and it makes me feel sick, also because of my own sexual assault as a kid (by a stranger).
Patriarchal society; girls are taught their self-worth is measured by the male gaze, boys have an expectation that access to a girl's body is their given right.
I'm generalising, there is too much to unpack in a single mastodon post. I do not mean to offend anyone, I'm just upset.
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@neil
Been thinking about this all morning.There is a lot to unpack in this report, and it makes me feel sick, also because of my own sexual assault as a kid (by a stranger).
Patriarchal society; girls are taught their self-worth is measured by the male gaze, boys have an expectation that access to a girl's body is their given right.
I'm generalising, there is too much to unpack in a single mastodon post. I do not mean to offend anyone, I'm just upset.
> Patriarchal society; girls are taught their self-worth is measured by the male gaze, boys have an expectation that access to a girl's body is their given right.
Yep. Toxic masculinity continues.
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@unchartedworlds @kanongil @neil I'm unclear on the "sexual encounter with a woman" criteria. Does that include men who are in an ongoing romantic/sexual relationship or does it only mean encounters outside a relationship? I can't see where they specify the exact definition of that or the exact question they asked.
Yeah, I don't think the researchers explained that part properly.
The encounters where the men did or didn't use the pressure tactics were explicitly supposed to be with, so to speak, "new" women:
"Participants were asked “In the past four years, how many times have you used any of the following strategies to get (or try to get) a woman to have some type of sex when she did not want to have sex or acted like she did not want to have sex? (Only women you have recently met—no sex or dating history with them beforehand).”"But what's not clear to me is, can an ongoing relationship qualify them into the cohort in the first place?
Is it that if they're in a monogamous relationship now, and therefore don't have any new-partner examples as per the spec, they have to think back to _before_ they were in that relationship for their example situation?
(If I'd been writing that paper, I would have wanted to give some examples of what did or didn't count)
But then also
"We chose a 2-year cut-off window to help ensure recall was clear"
"In the past four years, how many times have you used any of the following strategies"That seems contradictory?
Maybe they haven't actually thought it through properly themselves and that's why they don't explain it properly?
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@Irenetherogue Wow! How wrong I can be. But still, *95%*. That's *awful*.
@neil @Irenetherogue
from the questions, presumably that number would include any man who has used any dating app to try to meet a stranger for consentual sex.if their dating profile says "i am young and handsome," then that's already two of those sexually aggressive coercion methods.
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These are young men.
I didn't think that my sex education at school (an all boys school, in the late 1990s) was amazing, with its (entirely heterosexual) focus on consent and condoms, but even so...
I was under no illusions that rape-y behaviour exists, but I am genuinely gobsmacked by the numbers here.
@neil according to replies on the thread you linked to, the study was selecting for men who aggress against women.
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@neil according to replies on the thread you linked to, the study was selecting for men who aggress against women.
The study sets out its eligibility criteria, which do not include that, but it is definitely plausible that the scope of the study would appeal to such men.
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@kanongil @Colman @unchartedworlds @neil from my experience many cishet men in long-term relationships also have such behavior and I don't think nitpicking about this in a defensive way is helpful btw
it's just still a pretty normalized thing which sucks and needs to change
Yeah, I think there could be an equally important study into these pressuring behaviours which _didn't_ limit the examples to new partners only. I hypothesise it probably would show similar tactics in different ratios.
I don't think I'm being defensive though. I just got nerd-sniped! Badly-explained stats about gendered oppression, how could I resist
Seriously though, in my opinion the researchers undermined their own paper by the ambiguity. It's poor scicomm _and_ poor politics to leave people with a first impression different from the real findings, and a resulting batch of "well hang on a minute does it really mean that". They could have short-circuited this whole side discussion by explaining their stats better in the first place.
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@neil as a woman who dates men, im only surprised that they managed to get so many participants to admit it. I honestly would have thought it was an undercount if it was a lower percentage. Lovingly, yes it was extremely naive of you to be surprised. Hopefully "yes all men" hits as hard as it should now because yes, all men
@Irenetherogue @neil as a formerly woman-coded person who dated men, even the "nice" ones you've been with for multiple years will beg and coerce you into having sex when you're not in the mood
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The study sets out its eligibility criteria, which do not include that, but it is definitely plausible that the scope of the study would appeal to such men.
@neil you're right that it's not in the eligibility criteria, but it also does state a design intent to focus on men who admit to such tactics, and it explains some questions that are intended to put such people at ease to talk, though the wording of them would easily look like dog whistles to a lot of people. I'm sure it's quite bad out there, but I don't think the selection process was built with a population representative sample in mind.
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Yeah, I think there could be an equally important study into these pressuring behaviours which _didn't_ limit the examples to new partners only. I hypothesise it probably would show similar tactics in different ratios.
I don't think I'm being defensive though. I just got nerd-sniped! Badly-explained stats about gendered oppression, how could I resist
Seriously though, in my opinion the researchers undermined their own paper by the ambiguity. It's poor scicomm _and_ poor politics to leave people with a first impression different from the real findings, and a resulting batch of "well hang on a minute does it really mean that". They could have short-circuited this whole side discussion by explaining their stats better in the first place.
@unchartedworlds @bootlegrydia @kanongil @neil yes, once the conversation is about the results of a study it's important to interrogate that. A better discussion of the limitations of their study up front would have helped.
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@neil you're right that it's not in the eligibility criteria, but it also does state a design intent to focus on men who admit to such tactics, and it explains some questions that are intended to put such people at ease to talk, though the wording of them would easily look like dog whistles to a lot of people. I'm sure it's quite bad out there, but I don't think the selection process was built with a population representative sample in mind.
> I'm sure it's quite bad out there
Yes, that is very much my impression too, nuances of this specific report aside!
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@neil @Irenetherogue
from the questions, presumably that number would include any man who has used any dating app to try to meet a stranger for consentual sex.if their dating profile says "i am young and handsome," then that's already two of those sexually aggressive coercion methods.
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@Irenetherogue on the other hand, the number is well above 99% of men if nonconsentual interspecies breastfeeding ( #dairy ) is considered as rapey behaviour. excluding that type of sexual violence is bias against those mothers. so, yes, all men. @neil
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@Irenetherogue on the other hand, the number is well above 99% of men if nonconsentual interspecies breastfeeding ( #dairy ) is considered as rapey behaviour. excluding that type of sexual violence is bias against those mothers. so, yes, all men. @neil
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@Irenetherogue on the other hand, the number is well above 99% of men if nonconsentual interspecies breastfeeding ( #dairy ) is considered as rapey behaviour. excluding that type of sexual violence is bias against those mothers. so, yes, all men. @neil
Wait, what?! I'm not a fan of trivialising sexual violence against women in this way.
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Wait, what?! I'm not a fan of trivialising sexual violence against women in this way.
Dette indlæg er slettet! -
Wait, what?! I'm not a fan of trivialising sexual violence against women in this way.
@neil it is just intersectionality
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@neil it is just intersectionality
Your software seems to be removing the content warnings from the thread. Given the subject, that's not good
