DDos (Distributed Denial of Service) attack against BlueSky a few days ago: The whole network goes down.
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@jwildeboer I get people wanting to feel good about their decision to be here instead of on Bluesky, but given all the work going into building up independent ATProto infrastructure, I think we'll be better off focusing our energy elsewhere.
@stefan @jwildeboer I think technology is the least of their problem. Making the Atmosphere truly decentralized will require a major shift in power dynamics. I don't think you can build it around one dominant provider unless that provider purposely gives their position up. Is Bluesky going to do it with all the VC funding behind them? I don't think so. Not impossible, but also not very likely IMO. We'll be hearing about a lot of new ATProto services, how the ecosystem is flourishing etc, but then Bluesky will go down and so will most of the network because at the end of the day it will still be an ecosystem around one dominant provider.
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@jesuisatire ActivityPub/ActivityStreams, the protocol behind the fediverse, is a W3C open standard,. ATProto/Atmosphere is a corporate thing with no defined open process to update/change it. So I consider it to be a proprietary thing. Want to call that tunnel view, unable of thinking outside the box? Fine with me. @agowa338
It was shit out quite quickly and the main goal probably was deflection of liability or at best to allow integration with other bigtech entities like e.g. Facebook if we assume it was cooking for a while before it went public in twitter....
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@stefan @jwildeboer I think technology is the least of their problem. Making the Atmosphere truly decentralized will require a major shift in power dynamics. I don't think you can build it around one dominant provider unless that provider purposely gives their position up. Is Bluesky going to do it with all the VC funding behind them? I don't think so. Not impossible, but also not very likely IMO. We'll be hearing about a lot of new ATProto services, how the ecosystem is flourishing etc, but then Bluesky will go down and so will most of the network because at the end of the day it will still be an ecosystem around one dominant provider.
@sesivany Thanks to their last round of funding, the community has years to figure this all out.
From https://ionosphere.tv/talks/QKNkKMX:
> $800,000 a year to run the POPs ["point of presence, and it's basically like a co-location center"]
>
> [PDSes] cost about $600 a month each [totalling at $792,000/year for 110 of them]I'd just not worry too much about the Atmosphere and focus on making the fediverse safer and more welcoming.
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DDos (Distributed Denial of Service) attack against BlueSky a few days ago: The whole network goes down.
DDoS against mastodon.social today: Lots of users on that instance impacted, the rest of the Fediverse keeps on running, my instance doesn't really notice, messages will be queued up until mastodon.social is reachable again.
Both networks claim to be decentralised and federated. You decide
Just the other day I was saying what would happen if mastodon.social went down.
Jeez. I hope I didn't jinx it. Or inspire somebody to test my hypothesis.
Looks like my hypothesis was correct, though: mastosoc goes down but the rest of the federation keeps on tooting.
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@jesuisatire @jwildeboer WDYM?
Last time I checked @delta still used #PGP/MIME with #IMAP & #SMTP…- The whole reason to use #deltaChat is to avoid having to setup yet another Server (Which is the prime reason against #XMPP+#OMEMO, #Zulip, #RicketChat and #Matrix)…
Didn't Delta fork a bunch of email server software to form their own stack called “Chatmail”?
That sounds an awful lot like “yet another server” except with all the legacy baggage of email, most notably that it's an entire stack of yet-another-servers instead of just one (as in IRC, XMPP, etc).
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@jwildeboer Who the heck would attack mastodon social??
Probably the same jerks who keep attacking Codeberg and the Internet Archive.
Some people just want to see the Internet burn, I guess.
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It was shit out quite quickly and the main goal probably was deflection of liability or at best to allow integration with other bigtech entities like e.g. Facebook if we assume it was cooking for a while before it went public in twitter....
For me it looked like the back door interference with free speech in the arab spring made the twitter guru realize that only decentralization could lead to real free speech that ultimately has the goal of "power to the people".
The problem is that "power to the people" means being able to let loose in the first place, and for some (strange) reason there sleeps a Frodo in all of us (apparently).
So, sitting at the same ALL IN table in the restaurant at the end of the silicon valley one way street just makes you hear and feel the same things and vibes again and again, until they become true.
(for them, in their minds, their beings, their Idiocracyscale of their top ten most important people voted by their #TimeZeitGeistStream) -
Didn't Delta fork a bunch of email server software to form their own stack called “Chatmail”?
That sounds an awful lot like “yet another server” except with all the legacy baggage of email, most notably that it's an entire stack of yet-another-servers instead of just one (as in IRC, XMPP, etc).
@argv_minus_one
To be sincere, these questions go way into deep of technical observations, a moment where commoners like me just shut off and walk on.#Deltachat rules and becomes an option as long as normal people (DAU) install the APP, get asked for their email credentials, and yes even if those are gmail or hotmail, and become protected by the brute force of encryption.
full stopIn any case we are facing the same discussions we see (saw) with mastodon adoption or https.
There is only one main constitutional rule wen it comes to deal with the masses:
#KISS!Looks to me that the @delta crew went down the rabbit hole of specialization talking to each other about the extreme needs of extreme cases, maybe even exposed to some new version of some CIA\KGB handbook ..
@kkarhan @jwildeboer -
DDos (Distributed Denial of Service) attack against BlueSky a few days ago: The whole network goes down.
DDoS against mastodon.social today: Lots of users on that instance impacted, the rest of the Fediverse keeps on running, my instance doesn't really notice, messages will be queued up until mastodon.social is reachable again.
Both networks claim to be decentralised and federated. You decide
@jwildeboer “but fediverse is centralized too!!! it uh uhm some servers are on large cloud providers!!!! its just as centralized!!!!!!1!1!!!”
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DDos (Distributed Denial of Service) attack against BlueSky a few days ago: The whole network goes down.
DDoS against mastodon.social today: Lots of users on that instance impacted, the rest of the Fediverse keeps on running, my instance doesn't really notice, messages will be queued up until mastodon.social is reachable again.
Both networks claim to be decentralised and federated. You decide
@jwildeboer The Fediverse is a DDoS. A Distributed Defence of Service
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DDos (Distributed Denial of Service) attack against BlueSky a few days ago: The whole network goes down.
DDoS against mastodon.social today: Lots of users on that instance impacted, the rest of the Fediverse keeps on running, my instance doesn't really notice, messages will be queued up until mastodon.social is reachable again.
Both networks claim to be decentralised and federated. You decide
@jwildeboer I noticed it early, checked the status page for mastodon.social, and left mastodon alone.
Figured the admins had enough headaches and they did not need users constantly refreshing.
Also, posted a thank you to the admins.
All is well.
Because mastodon.
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DDos (Distributed Denial of Service) attack against BlueSky a few days ago: The whole network goes down.
DDoS against mastodon.social today: Lots of users on that instance impacted, the rest of the Fediverse keeps on running, my instance doesn't really notice, messages will be queued up until mastodon.social is reachable again.
Both networks claim to be decentralised and federated. You decide
And? This is a good time to remind people the decentralized nature of the Fedi and the ease of switching Mastodon accounts to another instance (even a non-Mastodon instance in some cases) means you can avoid DDoS attacks on the bigger instances by switching to a smaller one.
Preferably one where the other users and Mods are more in-tune with your mindset and preferences.
IMHO large instances like dot social are not in keeping with the ethos of the Fedi.
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Didn't Delta fork a bunch of email server software to form their own stack called “Chatmail”?
That sounds an awful lot like “yet another server” except with all the legacy baggage of email, most notably that it's an entire stack of yet-another-servers instead of just one (as in IRC, XMPP, etc).
@argv_minus_one @jesuisatire @jwildeboer I mean, @delta doing a minimalist #Mailserver and releasing that to the public is IMHO not bad, as this helps them test things and have a reference implementation.
- OFC that is not per-se "#Tivolization" but merely a convenient minimal setup for #SelfHosting…
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@argv_minus_one
To be sincere, these questions go way into deep of technical observations, a moment where commoners like me just shut off and walk on.#Deltachat rules and becomes an option as long as normal people (DAU) install the APP, get asked for their email credentials, and yes even if those are gmail or hotmail, and become protected by the brute force of encryption.
full stopIn any case we are facing the same discussions we see (saw) with mastodon adoption or https.
There is only one main constitutional rule wen it comes to deal with the masses:
#KISS!Looks to me that the @delta crew went down the rabbit hole of specialization talking to each other about the extreme needs of extreme cases, maybe even exposed to some new version of some CIA\KGB handbook ..
@kkarhan @jwildeboer@jesuisatire @argv_minus_one @jwildeboer I think @delta are merely trying to solve the #SelfHosting problem more elegantly for smaller groups.
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@agowa338
> I think it was more about not wanting to moderate and esp. not wanting to comply with anti-hatespeech requirements ..Ultimately most likely all of the above.
At the same time, my consideration is that most things are not only black and white, and for some reason the saying "the road to hell is plastered with a shit load of good intentions" goes a long way.
It is reasonable to consider that initial ideas and ideals are and remain deeply rooted in people. At the same time, not only every one is corruptible by money and power but also extortionable.
Everyone.
And if you think you are not vulnerable to extortion, well, think again about your feelings, your personal experiences in life, if their are "things" that are precious to you or you fell responsible for .. -
@jwildeboer “but fediverse is centralized too!!! it uh uhm some servers are on large cloud providers!!!! its just as centralized!!!!!!1!1!!!”
@hsza @jwildeboer just here to say your pfp looks cool as fuck.
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DDos (Distributed Denial of Service) attack against BlueSky a few days ago: The whole network goes down.
DDoS against mastodon.social today: Lots of users on that instance impacted, the rest of the Fediverse keeps on running, my instance doesn't really notice, messages will be queued up until mastodon.social is reachable again.
Both networks claim to be decentralised and federated. You decide
@jwildeboer I didnt even notice.
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DDos (Distributed Denial of Service) attack against BlueSky a few days ago: The whole network goes down.
DDoS against mastodon.social today: Lots of users on that instance impacted, the rest of the Fediverse keeps on running, my instance doesn't really notice, messages will be queued up until mastodon.social is reachable again.
Both networks claim to be decentralised and federated. You decide
@jwildeboer@social.wildeboer.net
Also, we still don't know if the April 16th thing was a DDoS. That's also what the devs claimed the April 3rd downtime was before their post mortem revealed it to just be sloppy vibe coding causing them to DOS themselves. -
DDos (Distributed Denial of Service) attack against BlueSky a few days ago: The whole network goes down.
DDoS against mastodon.social today: Lots of users on that instance impacted, the rest of the Fediverse keeps on running, my instance doesn't really notice, messages will be queued up until mastodon.social is reachable again.
Both networks claim to be decentralised and federated. You decide
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And to be very clear about this: DDoS attacks are stupid and cause a lot of work. My sympathy goes to the sysadmins on every side, including those at the upstream network providers who have to deal with this, often at weird times. It is exhausting work and I really don't want you to have to do it, but hey, that's the world we live in, unfortunately. Sys Admin Hug!
As the "not all of BlueSky" folks are occupying the replies, I will simply stop replying. Please continue to discuss, disagree or accept that people like me only have that much time and energy to invest.
