👀 … https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ …my colleague Denver Gingerich writes: newcomers' extensive reliance on LLM-backed generative AI is comparable to the Eternal September onslaught to USENET in 1993.
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@bkuhn @karen @silverwizard @josh there was an obvious path to sustainability for Web 2.0 and ajax so it made sense to use them.
@wwahammy:
> “there was an obvious path to sustainability for Web 2.0 and ajax so it made sense to use them.”
I know you didn't intend revisionist history, but that contradicts my experience.
I was there, trying to create & promulgate a copyleft for Web 2.0. I & everyone was unsure how to proceed so software freedom was maintained. To the extent AGPL succeeded,it was luck,not skill.
Our biggest mistake? We failed to dialogue with those who ballyhooed Web 2.0 & were its early adopters.
Cc: @evan -
@bkuhn I was working on two proposals for FOSSY and I'm not sure I even want to submit them any more.
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Talking with them is good. Helping to educate them is good. Making it sound as if what they are doing is okay is *not*.
There is a big difference between offering an olive branch to people who *might* be productive contributors in the *future*, and telling them that what they're doing *now* is okay.
The best AI policy remains "do not contribute any LLM-written content, ever". You have published a post that makes it easier for people who oppose such policies to cite your "olive branch" when arguing against it, and it is not obvious from your post that you do not want that to happen.
I don't want to see people *abused* for using LLMs. I do want them to understand that what they're doing is not okay and not welcome and not a positive contribution.@josh @wwahammy The point I was trying to make is that people are making software with LLMs who had never made software before, they aren't familiar with how FOSS works, and we should teach them how so they can collaborate (when it makes sense) instead of being an island. When people see the huge benefits of building on FOSS, when they can make meaningful changes to their router, TV, or otherwise by themselves (and collaborate to share their changes with others), then FOSS wins. (1/2)
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(3/5) …
Proprietary #LLM-backed gen #AI systems' *users* aren't criminals! They're just users of proprietary systems & some of them want to engage positively with FOSS.Years ago, I supported Homebrew's membership at #SFC despite their *primary* goal of improving #Apple products with #FOSS. It make me a bit
, but — historically — forming alliances with proprietary software enthusiasts who mean well & are #FOSS-curious is why our community is resilient.@bkuhn @silverwizard @wwahammy @cwebber I am not sure if I'm a known enough entity to post this here really, but I think it's worth pointing out that if you allow it into the community, who within the community are you pushing out? Because it would be unrealistic to think that accepting LLM into the community won't actively be pushing a portion of the community away. The other thing I think useful to consider is the reasons why it would push people out and to consider those reasons too, because I'm concerned that the fear of not be welcoming is overcoming the desire to have a safe community? Idk if that resonates so please feel free to yell me outta here if I'm overstepping..... -
@josh @wwahammy The point I was trying to make is that people are making software with LLMs who had never made software before, they aren't familiar with how FOSS works, and we should teach them how so they can collaborate (when it makes sense) instead of being an island. When people see the huge benefits of building on FOSS, when they can make meaningful changes to their router, TV, or otherwise by themselves (and collaborate to share their changes with others), then FOSS wins. (1/2)
@josh @wwahammy I definitely agree with discouraging developers who should know better from making LLM-generated commits that aren't very good. But this is a separate issue from communicating with the people who are just getting excited about buildings software, so we can encourage them to do so in FOSS-friendly ways. (2/2)
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@josh @wwahammy I definitely agree with discouraging developers who should know better from making LLM-generated commits that aren't very good. But this is a separate issue from communicating with the people who are just getting excited about buildings software, so we can encourage them to do so in FOSS-friendly ways. (2/2)
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@wwahammy Thanks for confirming that. There may be changes or updates we can make to clarify this.
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(2/5) … In https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/apr/15/eternal-november-generative-ai-llm/ ,
Denver's key points are: we *have* to (a) be open to *listening* to people who want to contribute #FOSS with #LLM-backed generative #AI systems, & (b) work collaboratively on a *plan* of how we can solve the current crisis.Nothing ever got done politically that was good when both sides become more entrenched, refuse to even concede the other side has some valid points, & each say the other is the Enemy. …
@bkuhn @wwahammy @silverwizard @cwebber Way to ignore the entire copyright point…
Unfortunately, this is what always has been done by LLM proponents: Whenever the copyright question comes up, it just gets ignored.
I guess that is the same way the AI techbros operate: “Let’s just ignore the copyright for now, get AI-tainted code into everything and then hopefully AI code tainted so much that judges don’t want to open that can of worms!”. Until they finally do because some big companies with enough lawyer money start to fight it all the way.
With the current rate of AI tainting everything, maybe it’s time to look for hobbies and jobs that don’t involve computers…
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@bkuhn @karen @josh @ossguy Sorry - I don't believe that you can enter into a discussion that is three years old and act like there's no previous text.
I'm not presupposing *anything* - I'm attempting to read your text and finding meaning in it that seems to resonate with others.
I guess - what's your vision of the person who needs to be reached that isn't? And How is subjecting software maintainers and web admins to harassment and burnout worth meeting those people?
@silverwizard @josh The person I'm envisioning us reaching is the person who is making software for the first time, and isn't familiar with FOSS or how software can be more than an island. If we can bring them into the fold, then we can mitigate some of the harassment and burnout by having more people available to share the load.
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@wwahammy @josh @ossguy Yeah - I'm confused on where that proposed group is. And I'm confused where they came from, and why one would make an argument three years into a flood that proposed a group of people, but didn't define them, while also making the argument look like you were attempting to speak to people about a topic that's very polarized?
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@silverwizard @josh The person I'm envisioning us reaching is the person who is making software for the first time, and isn't familiar with FOSS or how software can be more than an island. If we can bring them into the fold, then we can mitigate some of the harassment and burnout by having more people available to share the load.
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@bkuhn @wwahammy @silverwizard @cwebber Way to ignore the entire copyright point…
Unfortunately, this is what always has been done by LLM proponents: Whenever the copyright question comes up, it just gets ignored.
I guess that is the same way the AI techbros operate: “Let’s just ignore the copyright for now, get AI-tainted code into everything and then hopefully AI code tainted so much that judges don’t want to open that can of worms!”. Until they finally do because some big companies with enough lawyer money start to fight it all the way.
With the current rate of AI tainting everything, maybe it’s time to look for hobbies and jobs that don’t involve computers…
Seems you missed https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/mar/04/scotus-deny-cert-dc-circuit-thaler-appeal-llm-ai/
Not every blog post can cover every issue. Our blog posts are already much longer than anyone else's!
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@cwebber I think maybe you missed https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2026/mar/04/scotus-deny-cert-dc-circuit-thaler-appeal-llm-ai/ where #SFC analyzed that situation?
Also, follow @ai_cases & see the *firehose* of litigation on this & remember the “Work Based on the Program” issue under GPLv2 has still never been litigated directly but lots of cases about 100% proprietary software have bolstered GPL's strength.Big Content has legal battles with Big Tech on 100s of fronts rn. Yes, we're adrift on their sea, but the situation is not as dire as you imagine.
@bkuhn @cwebber @ai_cases I'm confused what you mean by "dire". All LLM-emitted code being infringing would not be a "dire" outcome but the ideal one. Even if it does blow up in the faces of irresponsible maintainers who've let that infect their codebases and who now need to revert to the last non-compromised versions.
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@bkuhn @wwahammy @silverwizard @cwebber Way to ignore the entire copyright point…
Unfortunately, this is what always has been done by LLM proponents: Whenever the copyright question comes up, it just gets ignored.
I guess that is the same way the AI techbros operate: “Let’s just ignore the copyright for now, get AI-tainted code into everything and then hopefully AI code tainted so much that judges don’t want to open that can of worms!”. Until they finally do because some big companies with enough lawyer money start to fight it all the way.
With the current rate of AI tainting everything, maybe it’s time to look for hobbies and jobs that don’t involve computers…
@js The intent of the post was not to enumerate the issues with LLMs, which I think most of us here know well. Rather, we want to think about how to engage with people about their newfound ability to make software, and how to use that to benefit others. If that means we need to make models trained only on copylefted software, so be it. But let's have that as a separate discussion.
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@js The intent of the post was not to enumerate the issues with LLMs, which I think most of us here know well. Rather, we want to think about how to engage with people about their newfound ability to make software, and how to use that to benefit others. If that means we need to make models trained only on copylefted software, so be it. But let's have that as a separate discussion.
@ossguy That is not the discussion your blog post is asking for. It is asking to include LLM-using people cosplaying as software engineers in the open source community. This basically says “Considering the copyright issue would exclude people who have no idea about programming and excluding people is bad, hence LLM code needs to be accepted in order to be inclusive”. Trying to frame this as a DEI issue is a really, really, really evil way of trying to push aside the copyright concerns. On top of being insulting to other DEI efforts.
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@bkuhn @silverwizard @wwahammy @cwebber I am not sure if I'm a known enough entity to post this here really, but I think it's worth pointing out that if you allow it into the community, who within the community are you pushing out? Because it would be unrealistic to think that accepting LLM into the community won't actively be pushing a portion of the community away. The other thing I think useful to consider is the reasons why it would push people out and to consider those reasons too, because I'm concerned that the fear of not be welcoming is overcoming the desire to have a safe community? Idk if that resonates so please feel free to yell me outta here if I'm overstepping.....
@firefly_lightning @silverwizard @wwahammy @cwebber I'm not sure what "accepting LLM into the community" means here, and maybe it suggests clarifications we could make to the post. The fact is, a lot of FOSS projects already have LLM-generated contributions, either submitted or included already, without knowing it. We can choose to vehemently reject these, or we can choose to engage with people who submit them and ensure they understand FOSS and how to make a good change, regardless of tools.
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@ossguy That is not the discussion your blog post is asking for. It is asking to include LLM-using people cosplaying as software engineers in the open source community. This basically says “Considering the copyright issue would exclude people who have no idea about programming and excluding people is bad, hence LLM code needs to be accepted in order to be inclusive”. Trying to frame this as a DEI issue is a really, really, really evil way of trying to push aside the copyright concerns. On top of being insulting to other DEI efforts.
@js If there is a copyright issue here, that still doesn't mean we should tell people who are excited about making software with LLMs to suddenly stop using LLMs, only that they should use different LLMs. It's unhelpful to label a technology universally bad if there are good versions of it. And if people don't know what the "good" and "bad" versions might be, we should help them understand.
