CONTEXT
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@benroyce @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva there is also the consideration wrt the effects of vehicle exhaust. Unless the power plants are coal, that's a straight up win for the carbon cycle.
Of course the batteries have rare chemicals and extractive companies still come into play. But they are there for vehicles regardless.
@draNgNon @benroyce @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva Also, EV batteries degrade far less than predicted, and have a valuable ‘second life’ as battery storage for a grid powered by renewables… and when they’re finally used up, they are up to 96% recyclable…. Reducing the need for more extraction.
You cannot re-burn gasoline or diesel.
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@GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva
unread
uninterested
another whiny toxic idealist
fighting the real left in service of the fossil fuel industry
and too fucking stupid to see it
stop following me and fuck you, you pathetic loser
@benroyce might I suggest they may have a point there?
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions
@GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva -
@benroyce might I suggest they may have a point there?
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240326-how-hydroelectric-dams-are-a-hidden-source-of-carbon-emissions
@GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva@punissuer @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva
i don't deny that point in the least
what i deny is this "well it's better, but it's not perfect, so let's just sit around and whine about being perfect, and thereby only help the status quo of terrible"
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@ArchaeoIain @benroyce @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva What the fuck are you talking about!?
You think we can population control ourselves back to a few hundred million people - and do you think handing out condoms will make it happen fast enough to be ANY help at all in the fight for a better environment on Earth?
@jwcph @benroyce @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva That is not what I said. It is the logic of your statement though. It is clear that government policies or even evil religions which encourage population growth and ban contraception are aiming in the opposite direction partly because the dominant economic models are derived from agrarian societies where more people could produce more so growth arose from growing population. Simple really.
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RE: https://mastodon.social/@kottke/116013120934445460
CONTEXT
the Government Pension Fund of Norway is the largest sovereign-wealth fund in the planet; investing over a real, EU trillion in businesses worldwide.
where did they get the money to start the fund? FROM SURPLUS PETROLEUM & FOSSIL FUEL REVENUES. Norway nationalized key sectors of their economy, starting with oil & gas.
so the Norwegian government uses oil & gas money to rid the country of #petromafia #consumerism thru investments not taxes.
take that, neoliberal capitalists.
@blogdiva Canada had an oil boom at the same time and all the funds raise were wasted by giving it to oil & gas companies
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@ArchaeoIain @benroyce @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva What the fuck are you talking about!?
You think we can population control ourselves back to a few hundred million people - and do you think handing out condoms will make it happen fast enough to be ANY help at all in the fight for a better environment on Earth?
@jwcph @benroyce @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva and unlike you I am not envisaging people dying, just not being born
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@tuban_muzuru @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva
right so we get our energy from the sun rather than digging it up. vast improvement
@benroyce @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva
Global warming melted the glaciers and snowmass which filled Lake Mead. They'll never let it disappear completely, but hydro power will soon be gone
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Yes, but the point of the Oak Ridge demonstration was a nuclear fuel cycle that ran "forever." Not trying to divert this wonderful discussion, just noting that 'nuclear' can be 'renewable'
. I too rage against folks who just want to go back to living in caves with 99% of the current population gone. @ChuckMcManis @paneerakbari @GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @blogdiva
while i generally like breeder reactors you have to admit the teensy tiny problem that this is how we make plutonium for bombs
this is why breeder reactors are downplayed
otherwise i agree
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@anthropy @GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce @blogdiva I've been ruminating as of late on how close Malthusian nihilism is to racism. This is not to cast aspersions or make accusations regarding thread participants; it's just a thought.
Malthusian math (which is disproven, or at least, claims to prove more than it can because several of its assumptions were upended by new technological breakthroughs) indicates some people have to die or the entire population dies.
But then you're left with the problem that nobody wants to die, and racism steps in to provide a framework that lets people rank the quality of other human beings to let them square that cognitive dissonance off.
It may be an interesting dynamic, but I haven't done nearly enough thinking or research on the subject to endorse it as anything more than a thought.
malthusianism is eugenics which is always founded on racism.
if you agree with anything malthusian, i would suggest going into cult deprogramming therapy.
malthusianism ―like eugenics, like racism, like capitalism― is a death cult.
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@benroyce @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva No argument there; my only quibble was the "get everyone an EV" bit. We can do even better at the same time is all I'm saying.
@brad @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva
but never in a million years did i make this
"get everyone an EV"
argument
replace all ICE with EV
*and* reduce cars in general
this is the ideal argument
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@punissuer @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva
i don't deny that point in the least
what i deny is this "well it's better, but it's not perfect, so let's just sit around and whine about being perfect, and thereby only help the status quo of terrible"
@benroyce I don't know about you, but to me, this was new information. If that 2,200g CO2e/kWh is correct – which I don't know yet – and my math checks out, then a BEV powered by hydroelectric energy really isn't better than a smaller ICE car at all.
@GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva -
@GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce @blogdiva It's insane how impossible it is to explain to these people that they will have to give up some of their conveniences if they actually want to solve climate change. You just told them to take the bus and they will hate you forever. They only know how to consume, they believe the only solution to their problems is economic growth and this planet is doomed.
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@adriano @GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @blogdiva
the arguments of toxic perfectionists like GhostOnTheHalfShell are not just foolishness in isolation
the real problem is how like here they go after EVs
they have to attack *better* because it's not *perfect*
!?
you see this constantly all over the left
these people are rat poison
in pursuit of purity, they fight better
thereby helping the status quo: the fossil fuel industry
they are an agent provocateur shill or a moron
@benroyce @adriano @GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @blogdiva I think this thread shows that Earth's destruction is a touchy subject. I wish everyone could get along and share the land, but it's not profitable nor convenient. Creating a digital world for everyone to live in, on top of the one they already shit on, certainly isn't good for the planet, convince me otherwise. With so much of what we can't now live without, being something we never needed in the first place, progress seems more like a bait and switch tactic to move the herd than a promise of a bright future. I'll support whatever initiative buys the planet more inhabitable time.
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@benroyce I don't know about you, but to me, this was new information. If that 2,200g CO2e/kWh is correct – which I don't know yet – and my math checks out, then a BEV powered by hydroelectric energy really isn't better than a smaller ICE car at all.
@GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva@punissuer @GhostOnTheHalfShell @blogdiva
But it doesn't change the overall need to get off fossil fuels
Nevermind you can work to reduce the methane production from hydroelectric
So this issue you note is absolutely true, but it doesnt change the overall equation
In the end it only becomes a piece of whataboutism in defense of fossil fuels
Which I am not accusing you of. I'm just asking you to look at the big picture
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@FrancoisPrague @nikatjef @dnkboston @GhostOnTheHalfShell
thank you, sincerely, for the laugh
endless dreary nihilism and whiny toxic perfectionism from pinheads is a drag
@benroyce @nikatjef @dnkboston @GhostOnTheHalfShell
Glad I could be of any (un)use
With love
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@ChuckMcManis @paneerakbari @GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @blogdiva
while i generally like breeder reactors you have to admit the teensy tiny problem that this is how we make plutonium for bombs
this is why breeder reactors are downplayed
otherwise i agree
Yeah there is that downside. When my kids were younger we talked about how as technology became more sophisticated, it also becomes more capable. And capability has both good and bad vectors associated with it.
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@GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce @blogdiva What's your source on permanent destruction and toxicity? I'm pretty sure that isn't true.
Batteries can renewable capture equipment (wind and solar) can be recycled. Relatively easily, in fact; for batteries, we can grind them and re-extract the useful elements easier than we can pull them out of the ground, and for generators, we can tear them down and refurb them.
I don't dispute that initial extraction costs money and lives (though I compare it to fossil fuel extraction in that regard). But we can't recapture the output of a fossil fuel reaction and turn it back into fossil fuel; we can grind a battery and make a new battery, over and over, for a very long time before the elements stop cooperating.
@mark @GhostOnTheHalfShell @benroyce @blogdiva This is my understanding too.
We can recycle old batteries to make new ones. It is cheaper to do this than digging more materials, once we get enough supply of old batteries.
Battery tech is also getting better. We are on the cusp of being able to replace lithium with sodium for electricity grid storage, and sodium doesn't require mining in the way lithium does.
The key here is that all the extraction for EVs is a one-time (mostly) operation that will replace fossil fuel extraction, which is not a one-time operation.
And before anyone thinks I'm a EV shill: I hate all cars. I think they should be completely outlawed from cities and heavily reduced elsewhere. Am I going to get my wish in my lifetime? I very much doubt it. EVs are an improvement over internal combustion in every material way.
Once we have EVs, we need to fix the toxic tires and road markings. Then onward.
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OK, it’s only a lie. If what you’ve been told about renewables is true.. let me emphasize that the companies who were gushing over renewables are the worst polluting most environmentally destructive industries in the world which is the mining sector.
You are going to believe companies that are no different than big oil and no different than big tobacco at face value value.
How well has that traditionally worked out?
I don't believe those companies for a second. The one I believe who was gushing over renewables is a Youtuber!
CC: @benroyce@mastodon.social @brad@1040ste.net @blogdiva@mastodon.social -
And if you're going to then say oh, but you're gonna leave the disabled to die because they can't move. I want to cut off that argument in advance and saying that the disabled in Amsterdam have no mobility issues the city has solve that problem, so don't even try or if you're beginning to think that way, please go look at how the Dutch handled mobility for the disabled
@GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @benroyce @blogdiva
I’m sorry Ghost, you’re wrong. You’ve been mislead by oil companies to confuse things like power and energy.
Try this video. But stop at the end-credits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ9nt2ZeGM
For the rest of my people, watch the post-roll and put it on loop.
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@adriano @GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @blogdiva
the arguments of toxic perfectionists like GhostOnTheHalfShell are not just foolishness in isolation
the real problem is how like here they go after EVs
they have to attack *better* because it's not *perfect*
!?
you see this constantly all over the left
these people are rat poison
in pursuit of purity, they fight better
thereby helping the status quo: the fossil fuel industry
they are an agent provocateur shill or a moron
@adriano @GhostOnTheHalfShell @anthropy @blogdiva @benroyce
Sadly, the people (in the US) for whom EVs would be an improvement are those least likely to afford them.I am thinking of all the gasoline cars that are owned by low-income people, that are paid off, sometimes barely run, and are, in some cases, actually being held together with duct tape and wire.
So all the middle-class+ folks can argue about EVs, while the rest of us just fill up our cars when we can afford to, and buy another roll of duct tape, and/or wire.*
* yes, one hose in my 2013 car is held together with duct tape. The parts and labor expense to replace it are out of my price range. I doubt I will ever own an EV, nor will many of my neighbors.
